2

Three major translations already render "ho kyrios kai ho theos" as "YHWH our God".

Revelation 4:11 NLT

“You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you created all things, and they exist because you created what you pleased.”

Revelation 4:11 Douay-Rheims Bible

Thou art worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory, and honour, and power: because thou hast created all things; and for thy will they were, and have been created.

Revelation 4:11 NAB

“Worthy are you, Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things; because of your will they came to be and were created.”

By translating it this way, the proclamation which includes the responsibility for creation is ascribed to God the Father and not the Lord Jesus Christ.

This detail is critical because the passage attributes the act of creation to whichever being is described in the proclamation.

The NWT identifies kyrios as the Tetragrammaton, and renders Revelation 4:11 thus:

“You are worthy, Jehovah our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they came into existence and were created.”

However in most other translations, Revelation 4:11 is rendered as "our Lord and God", which instead ascribes the proclamation to the Lord Jesus Christ and applies the act of creation to him and even identifies him as God.

Revelation 1:8, 4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7, 19:6, and 21:22 all share the similar title of "kyrios ho theos ho pantokrator"; YHWH God Almighty.

In Philippians 4:20, "theo kai patri" is usually translated as "God and Father" but is sometimes translated as "God our Father" such as in the NLT.

Personally, I think Revelation 4:11 should be translated as:

"Worthy are You, YHWH and God of us, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will, they existed and were created."

Your thoughts?

1
  • 1
    It is Jesus Christ who 'sits' upon the throne. [to him that sat on the throne verse 9.] It is the throne of God but Deity, as such. does not 'sit' for Deity is Spirit (pneuma ho theos).
    – Nigel J
    Commented Jul 15 at 20:40

5 Answers 5

4

My thoughts?

Answer

This is a nice trick that is used by the OP which is to hide one truth using another truth.

Explanation

Definitely, Revelation 4:11 (as I understand it), refers to God the Father. And it says here:

“Lord, You are worthy to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because You created all things, and through Your will they exist and were created”.

This is the undeniable truth. But……….

But, the assertion by OP that “By translating it this way, the proclamation which includes the responsibility for creation is ascribed to God the Father and not the Lord Jesus Christ”, is totally unwarranted.

Why?

This is because God the Father Himself says and witnesses this regarding His Son (if we follow the same Scripture alone):

“"You, Lord, at the beginning founded the earth, and the heavens are works of Your hands. They will vanish away, but You will continue; and they will all become old, like a garment, and You shall fold them up like a covering, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail" (Hebrews 1:10-12).

Here, God the Father testifies 2 things:

  1. That Lord Jesus Christ created the heavens and the earth; and

  2. This is a direct quote from Psalms 102:25-27 where the Lord is in fact Jehovah!! So God the Father identifies Jesus as the Yahweh of the Old Testament.

(God the Father’s testimony is much weightier to me than the OP assertion).

Secondly, I don’t know whether the NWT is part of the ‘Sacred Name Movement’ which believes that in order to be saved a true believer has to use the name Jehovah/Yahweh.

This again is false because had it been so, the holy Apostles would have used the same name but instead, following the LXX tradition, they also used Lord in place of the Tetragrammaton.

Besides, being filled with the Holy Spirit (verse 8), Peter proclaimed on the Pentecost, regarding “the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene” (verse 10):

“and there is salvation in no other One, for neither is there any other name under Heaven having been given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

(In the OT, it is Jehovah’s name that is connected with salvation to men proving again that God the Father’s testimony about His Son being the Jehovah is true!)

Conclusion

To hide a truth with another truth may be a logical fallacy.

3

It needs to be pointed out that "ho theos" does not occur in the manuscripts of Revelation 4:11 that were used by many translators up until the mid 1800s.

The Englishmans Greek New Testament (with the Greek text of Robert Estienne, 1550 and various readings of editions of Elzevir, 1624, etc) and an interlinear of the A.V. of 1611, do not have "ho theos" in that verse. But it has a footnote saying that 'and our God' is in the MSS LTTraW (Lachmann, Tischendorf, Tregelles and the two Wordworths.)

Neither does Young's Literal Translation of 1898. Nor does The New Testament of John Metcalfe, 2021.

This question might benefit from acknowledgment that many MSS do not have "and our God" in the verse in question, for the text is disputed.

A second claim by the O.P. in a comment, that "ὁ κύριος" (the LORD) is put in place of the Tetragrammaton" is also disputed as the Hebrew Tetragram was never in any of the Greek MSS of the New Testament writings.

A third point is that the question can be resolved simply by reading a few verses further on, where the Lamb (the risen Christ) shares the same, one heavenly throne of God. The Lamb is in the midst of that unique throne - Rev. 5:6.

My answer is that, whether or not Greek MSS of that verse have "ho kyrios kai ho theos", the meaning remains intact, that all heaven worships Him who created all things. This unique One is the Lord God. And Jesus is the one Lord Christians adore (Ephesians 4:5) and who also made everything that was made (John 1:1-3, i.e. He is the Creator.) This means that the claim in the question, "that translating it this way, the proclamation which includes the responsibility for creation is ascribed to God the Father and not the Lord Jesus Christ" is illogical. That verse does not distinguish the Father from the Son, for it simply says that the Creator of all things is worthy to receive all honour, worship and glory. A problem is only perceived by those who wish to disregard Jesus Christ as the one who made all things as in John 1:1-3 and elsewhere in the Bible. Those who say Jesus was made by Jehovah, and must not be worshipped, do strive to use Revelation 4:11 to bolster their case.

Whichever pedigree of MSS are used for that verse, there is no problem despite the disputed nature of the text, for the dispute does not lie in seeing a difference between the Father and the Son in the role of sole Creator (except by those who try to make the verse imply such a difference, when it does not.) It just identifies the Creator as Lord and, according to some MSS, also as God.

2

Lord or Jehovah
The premise of the Jehovah Witness translation of the Bible is the practice of replacing YHVH with LORD is an error and the text should be translated literally. This approach only has merit when considering how to translate the Old Testament. The practice of not speaking "Jehovah" was Jewish, and the practice of not writing YHVH in Greek began with the LXX, some 200 years before the Christian Era.

All New Testament documents indicate the early church followed Judaism in this regard. Therefore, claiming ὁ κύριος means Jehovah is an interpretation, not a translation. Moreover, it is an interpretation contrary to the practice of early church and Judaism which continues the practice to this day.

In the appendix to his book, Truth in Translation, Jason BeDuhn states:

Having concluded that the NW is one of the most accurate English translations of the New Testament currently available, I would be remiss if I did not mention one peculiarity of this translation that by most conventions of translation would be considered an inaccuracy, however, little this inaccuracy change the meaning of most of the verses where it appears. I am referring to the use of “Jehovah” in the NW New Testament, “Jehovah” (or “Yahweh” or some other reconstruction of the divine name consisting of the four consonants YHWH) is the personal name of God used more than six thousand times in the original Hebrew of the Old Testament. But the name never appears in any Greek manuscript of any book of the New Testament. So, to introduce the name “Jehovah” into the New Testament, as the NW does two-hundred-thirty-seven times, is not accurate translation by the most basic principle of accuracy: adherence to the original Greek text. 1

BeDuhn explains the validity of this approach by saying the NWT harmonizes the New Testament by continuing the practice. For example, consider how the NWT understands Peter on Pentecost.

Acts 2:21

And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (ESV)
And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved. (NWT)

BeDuhn explains the logic. Since Peter is quoting Joel, one must look to the Old Testament to accurately understand Peter's speech. The problem with this logic should be obvious, anyone reading Acts would think they could be saved by calling on the the name of the Lord, Jesus.

Romans 10:9

For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. (NWT)

However, according to the Jehovah Witness interpretation, the name which brings salvation was hidden; it was never written in any Greek text.

The essence of a belief the earliest Christians used Jehovah is similar to what the Gnostics taught: secret knowledge was essential for salvation. The Gnostics taught the plain reading of texts provided limited knowledge which was insufficient for salvation. One needed to be initiated to understand what was hidden. In terms of the Gentiles and the name Jehovah, a Gnostic would say, "The Jews hid the Name Jehovah from the Gentiles when they translated the Tanakh, and in their public readings on the Sabbath. You need someone with the complete knowledge to teach you."

Therefore, the basis of salvation as taught in the New Testament, the NWT interpretation, You are worthy, Jehovah our God... and the OP's suggestion, "Worthy are You, YHWH and God of us... should be rejected.

Worship
Revelation has more to say about worship than any New Testament book. It is also the only place which describes worship taking place. In their book, Unveiling Empire; Reading Revelation Then and Now, Wes Howard-Brook and Anthony Gwyther make this observation:

One of the greatest differences between Revelation and other New Testament texts is Revelation's portrayal of numerous scenes of liturgy and worship. The Gospels never show the followers of Jesus in prayer, although Jesus prays regularly...teaches his followers how to pray...and harshly criticizes hypocritical prayer of the Jerusalem elite...Similarly, Paul refers many times to his own prayer and offers advice to his communities on how to pray and conduct themselves during worship...as do the other epistle writers...Revelation, though, like the work of a good novelist, shows rather than tells its audience how to offer prayer and worship.2

Therefore, like the question of salvation, only Lord would be proper instruction on how to worship (cf. Revelation 1:3). The NWT and OP's suggestion should be rejected.

The Literal Text
There are textual variants

ἄξιος εἶ ὁ κύριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν λαβεῖν τὴν δόξαν καὶ τὴν τιμὴν καὶ τὴν δύναμιν ὅτι σὺ ἔκτισας τὰ πάντα καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου ἦσαν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν (MGNT)

Ἄξιος εἶ Κύριε, λαβεῖν τὴν δόξαν καὶ τὴν τιμὴν καὶ τὴν δύναμιν ὅτι σὺ ἔκτισας τὰ πάντα καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου εἰσιν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν (TR)

The critically accepted text is ὁ κύριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν. The King James text has Lord as vocative and omits the God of us. The difficulty in the accepted text likely accounts for alterations in the Received Text.

The composition, ὁ κύριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν prefaces the two nominative nouns with an article separated by the conjunction καὶ. Unmistakably the meaning is the Lord and the God of us. The verb worthy is singular indicating the two nouns identify a single entity. This is reinforced by the phrase ὅτι σὺ ἔκτισας, for you created, where you and created are also written as singular.

The difficulty lies in the fact the literal text states the Lord is the God of us... which explicitly states the Lord is being worshipped by the 24-elders as our God. In New Testament terminology, the Lord is Jesus, most often expressed as our Lord. That is, the 24-elders are described as worshipping the Lord, not the God who is our God. Equally problematic for those who demand worship can only be to the Father, is the fact Father is never used in any worship scene amd only used once in the visions following the seven letters.

Revelation 14

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

If one believes the name written on the forehead is "Jehovah" we have a scene in which true worship, like true salvation, is hidden from those on the earth.

Finally, with respect to what the 24-elders say, there is one statement which seems incompatible with interpreting their worship as directed to the Father.

Worthy are you...to receive the glory and the honor and the power...

The Father should already possess these attributes. If the 24-elders are worshipping the Father, why aren't they worshipping Him because He has the glory and the honor and the power? Why does their worship reflect something which is yet to happen?

Conclusion
The 24-elders are worshipping the Lord. They are not worshipping their Lord or the Lord of us. The expression used should be interpreted as the Lord of all. Unlike Paul, for example, who writes to Christians and identifies Jesus as our Lord (because those who reject Jesus do not acknowledge Him as Lord). the 24-elders do not qualify Lord. He is the Lord, not our Lord.

On the other hand, in their worship the 24-elders do qualify God. They worship our God, not the God. With respect to the conflict with worship taking place throughout Revelation, true worship must be qualified. There are some who worship the beast and their are some who worship the Lord as their God.

As BeDuhn says, the inaccuracy of changing Lord to Jehovah changes the meaning. Instead of describing the 24-elders worshipping as New Testament believers; it presents their worship in terms of Old Testament Judaism. Except they do not direct their worship to the God, but the Lord, their God, who is worthy to receive (in the future) the glory and the honor and the power.


  1. Jason David BeDuhn, Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament, University Press of America, 2003, p. 169
  2. Wes Howard-Brook and Anthony Gwyther, Unveiling Empire; Reading Revelation Then and Now, Orbis Books, 2001, p. 197.
1

I note the following grammatical features concerning the opening clause of Rev 4:11 -

  • "Lord" and "God" are both nominative
  • the two nouns are connected by "kai" = "and"
  • both are articular (both have an article)
  • "worthy" is a nominative advective
  • the verb is singular (thus making "Lord" and "God" the same entity)
  • there is no "you" in the text, nor is "you" implied

Thus, the pedantically correct way to translate this sentence is:

The Lord and the God of us is worthy ...

In more idiomatic (smoother) English, I would translate this clause as:

Our Lord and God is worthy ...

Now, the OP essentially asks if ὁ Κύριος (= "the Lord") could be vocative and thus be translated:

O Lord our God, [You] are worthy ...

That is grammatically possible but unlikely because of the placement of the conjunction "kai" = "and". The text appears to emphasizing that God is also "Lord", ie, master and king.

Finally, on the subject of replacing "Lord" with YHWH - there is no justification in the text or the rest of the NT for such a textual emendation. Indeed, in the rest of the NT where such a possibility might exist, not one of the NT writers ever attempted to do such a thing. Further, in every instance where the NT writers quote the OT, they NEVER attempt to use Jehovah nor YHWH or anything like it. Such is a modern practice of some unitarian translations. See appendix below.

Indeed, in many of those places where the NT quotes the OT using YHWH in the Hebrew, they refer specifically to Jesus as YHWH. Thus, if the OP wishes to adopt thus unbiblical theology, then it would be quite counter-productive for his theology as many times, the NT would then call Jesus, "Jehovah".

APPENDIX - Lord or YHWH?

Every time the inspired NT writers quote an OT passage containing the Tetragrammaton, יהוה (YHWH) it is always translated as Κύριος or "Lord", and occasionally by θεός (theos) = "God" there are no exceptions to this rule.

Thus means that any attempt to alter the sacred text of the NT by modern translators to read "YHWH" or "Jehovah" in places is completely unwarranted, speculative emendation.

The list below list all the places I could find that quote an OT passage contain YHWH in the Hebrew and that it translated by kyrios = "Lord" in the NT.

  • Matt 4:7 quotes Deut 6:16
  • Matt 4:10 quotes Deut 6:13
  • Matt 5:33 quotes Num 30:2 & Deut 23:21
  • Matt 21:9 quotes Ps 118:26
  • Matt 21:42 quotes Ps 118:22
  • Matt 22:37 quotes Deut 6:4, 5 & 10:12
  • Matt 22:44 quotes Ps 110:1
  • Matt 23:39 quotes Ps 118:26
  • Matt 27:9, 10 quotes Zech 11:12, 13
  • Mark 1:3 quotes Isa 40:3
  • Mark 11:9 quotes Ps 118:26
  • Mark 12:10, 11 quotes Ps 118:23
  • Mark 12:29 quotes Deut 6:4
  • Mark 12:30 quotes Deut 6:5
  • Mark 12:36 quotes Ps 110:1
  • Luke 3:4-6 quotes Isa 40:3-5
  • Luke 4:18 quotes Isa 61:1
  • Luke 4:19 quotes Isa 61:2
  • Luke 10:27 quotes Deut 6:5
  • Luke 13:35 & 38 quotes Ps 118:26
  • Luke 20:37 quotes Ex 6:3
  • Luke 20:42 quotes Ps 110:1
  • John 1:23 quotes Isa 40:3
  • John 6:45 quotes Isa 54:13 but uses θεοῦ for היְהֹוָ rather than Κυρίου.
  • John 12:13 quotes Ps 118:26
  • John 12:38 quotes Isa 53:1
  • Acts 2:20 quotes Joel 2:31
  • Acts 2:21 quotes Joel 2:32
  • Acts 2:25 quotes Ps 16:8
  • Acts 2:34 quotes Ps 110:1
  • Acts 3:22 quotes Deut 18:15
  • Acts 4:26 quotes Ps 2:2
  • Acts 7:31-34 quotes Ex 3:4-7
  • Acts 7:48-50 quotes Isa 66:1, 2
  • Acts 13:47 quotes Isa 49:5, 6
  • Acts 15:17 quotes Amos 9:12
  • Rom 4:3 quotes Gen 15:6 but uses θεῷ instead of κυρίῳ.
  • Rom 4:8 quotes Ps 32;1, 2
  • Rom 9:28 quotes Isa 10:22, 23
  • Rom 9:29 quotes Isa 1:9
  • Rom 10:13 quotes Joel 2:32
  • Rom 10:16 quotes Isa 53:1
  • Rom 11:3 quotes 1 Kings 19:14
  • Rom 12:19 quotes Deut 32:35, 36
  • Rom 14:11 quotes Isa 45:23
  • Rom 15:11 quotes Ps 117:1
  • 1 Cor 1:31 quotes Jer 9:24
  • 1 Cor 2:16 quotes Isa 40:13
  • 1 Cor 3:20 quotes Ps 94:11
  • 1 Cor 10:9 quotes Num 21:5, 6
  • 1 Cor 10:26 quotes Ps 24:1
  • 2 Cor 6:18 quotes 2 Sam 7:8
  • Eph 5:19 paraphrases Ps 30:4 & 92:1
  • Heb 10:30 quotes Deut 32:35, 36
  • 1 Peter 2:3 quotes Ps 34:8, 9
  • 1 Peter 3:12 quotes Ps 34:15, 16
3
  • Dottard - Your approach fails entirely because it completely overlooks a major clue: "ὁ κύριος" (the LORD) is put in place of the Tetragrammaton in the literal Greek OT. For example, Psalm 145:8 LXX, "ὁ κύριος" is put in place of where the 4-letter "YHWH" Tetragrammaton is in the Hebrew OT, in both the DSS and MS. Do you understand that the same could be playing out in Revelation 4:11? We're talking about God the Father in this verse, not Jesus, because it matches all the other "ho kyrios ho theos" passages in Revelation which only always apply to God the Father Almighty.
    – Joshua B
    Commented Jun 4 at 0:06
  • 1
    @JoshuaB - that is true and that is the point I make above. If we do that everywhere that Jesus is called YHWH in many places. Is that what you want?
    – Dottard
    Commented Jun 4 at 0:24
  • Dottard - Incorrect. What I am proposing is that Revelation 4:11 is not ascribed to Jesus Christ at all, but God the Father. The "kyrios" in this verse is not "Lord" as in adonai, but "the LORD" as in the personal Name of Father God, the Tetragrammaton YHWH (Yahuwah). Why all this? Because God created the world for Jesus. The world was not created by Jesus for Jesus, but by God for Jesus.
    – Joshua B
    Commented Jun 4 at 1:32
0

As you can see from the literal Greek, there's a definite article preceding both Κύριος (Lord) and Θεὸς (God).

enter image description here

Here's the link: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/4.htm

Virtually all English-language translations accommodate these definite articles. You can compare them here: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%204:11

In English, we sometimes combine the articles or recast sentences. For example,

  • He picked up sword and shield.

  • He picked the sword and shield.

  • He picked up the sword and the shield.

  • He picked up his sword and shield.

  • He picked up his sword and his shield.

The differences between these versions in English convey nuances. But in my embarrassingly limited understanding of Greek, the article, ho, doesn't work the same as the articles in English.

The use of the interjection, "O" is found in the KJV. According to the Online Etymology Dictionary:

[Oh is an] interjection expressing various emotions (fear, surprise, pain, invocation, gladness, admiration, etc.), 1530s, from Middle English o, from Old French ô, oh or directly from Latin o, oh; a common Indo-European interjection (compare Greek ō; Old Church Slavonic and Lithuanian o; Irish och, Old Irish a; Sanskrit a).

See https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=oh

Why some translators and translation teams made their decisions is speculative.

Hope this helps.

12
  • Dieter - I think that the Greek words are trying to convey what in English we would have as: "the LORD our God". The "kai" before theos is not separating the titles, but extending the title of what should be the Tetragrammaton. In Revelation, this is "the LORD God Almighty" or "the LORD our God".
    – Joshua B
    Commented Jun 3 at 17:24
  • Yes, "The Lord and the God of us" conveys our relationship with God, making it equivalent to "our Lord and our God" and most other English-language translations. Considering that the Greek of Revelation is the roughest in the New Testament, John might well have written it in Greek himself. As a result, we should not expect to find any nuances in it and we would be misled if we do so.
    – Dieter
    Commented Jun 3 at 18:34
  • Dieter - Could it be translated, "You are worthy, O YHWH and God of us"? If you think so, please add this rendering to your answer and I will give you the green check.
    – Joshua B
    Commented Jun 3 at 19:09
  • John might have had this in mind, but YHWH wasn't in the original text to be translated, and I'm not convinced that the "O" (Oh) in English is true to the ho in Greek.
    – Dieter
    Commented Jun 3 at 19:10
  • Dieter - The "O" is merely to accommodate God's Tetragrammaton name in English. Like I said, if you add that translation proposal to your answer, I'll grant you the green check.
    – Joshua B
    Commented Jun 3 at 19:36

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