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Is this passage talking about a radical change in God's justice itself, or it is a mere change of the covenant condition for justification or righteousness? Exegete Paul's justification doctrine with focus on the immediate context, as much as possible.

[ESV Rom 4:5-8] 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
(Psalm 32:1-2 Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man against whom the LORD counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.)

Background on the justice of God and Bible-org article on the verse for education purpose. Exod 23:3; Exod 23:6; Lev 19:15; Deut 1:17; Deut 16:19; Prov 18:5; Prov 28:21; John 7:24; Jas 2:1

[ESV Psalms 10:13] Why does the wicked renounce God and say in his heart, “You will not call to account”?

[ESV Prov 17:15] He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD.

[ESV Prov 24:23-24] 23These also are sayings of the wise. Partiality in judging is not good. 24Whoever says to the wicked, “You are in the right,” will be cursed by peoples, abhorred by nations,

[ESV Prov 11:20-21] 20Those of crooked heart are an abomination to the LORD, but those of blameless ways are his delight. 21​Be assured, an evil person will not go unpunished, but the offspring of the righteous will be delivered.

[ESV Exod 23:7] Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked.

[ESV Exod 34:7] keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.”

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    The Psalm of David, which Paul quotes, speaks about repentant sinners, seeking forgiveness (see also Psalm 51); the Proverbs of Solomon, David's son, speak about unrepentant sinners, bribing corrupt judges to either declare them innocent, or look the other way.
    – Lucian
    Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 11:46
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    You're comparing apples with oranges. The 3 Proverbs texts speak of humans who are themselves sinners judging other humans. Godly judges should exercise God's standards when judging, so they must not show partiality, or be crooked, or exonerate the wicked. But Psalm 32 are the words of a sinner (king David) forgiven by God though he did not deserve pardon. Romans 4 deals with God's undeserved grace towards sinners who may justify a sinner while still a sinner (= ungodly) and who will continue to sin even after being justified by God. Do you imply that God should not forgive ungodly sinners?
    – Anne
    Commented Jun 10, 2021 at 17:24
  • @anne the very reason men are commanded to be righteous and just because God is just. Are you saying men are commanded to judge justly but God can commit those abomination? How is that consistent to his own nature. Why does God command them to be like him. You have to prove and defend your claims that God changed course of his nature and became abominable yet expect men to be just and holy. That would make men better than God. Apples and oranges. Write a logical answer.
    – Michael16
    Commented Jun 11, 2021 at 3:27
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    I did not write an answer, I made a comment to an illogical point in your Q, which I will not answer because it is illogical. “Let God be found true though every man be found a liar” Rom. 3:4 equals “Let God be found righteous though every man be found unrighteous.” You cannot compare OT verses with that NT one you fail to understand. David understood. Read Rom. 4:5-6 again, please. Anne
    – Anne
    Commented Jun 11, 2021 at 16:05
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    I’m voting to close this question because it's a 'Stump the Chumps' question - posing a premise the author refuses to accept whilst asking respondents to justify it - it is here with the intention of stirring conflict rather than seeking a genuine answer. The author refuses to provide his own Answer and will accept no other. hermeneutics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/394/…
    – Steve can help
    Commented Jun 15, 2021 at 19:49

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Rom 4:

5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness

The focal verb here is believes. He believes in God who justifies the ungodly. The main verb is not justifies which is in the clause of the relative pronoun. God justifies the ungodly when he believes. God does not justify the ungodly when he does not believes.

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  • You are right, however the question is God justifies the ungodly while they are still sinners, in that case your answer would be simply "no".
    – Michael16
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 16:11
  • I have not mentioned "sinners".
    – user35953
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 16:23
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This idea is not unique to Rom 4 we find it earlier in Rom 3:23, 24 -

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

In fact, there are lots of such places in the Bible - see appendix below.

Now for the technical parts - justification or forgiveness is used in two senses:

  1. What might be called "provisional" justification - Jesus' sacrifice of atonement is full and complete, meaning it is universal by proving salvation for all people. See appendix below.
  2. Accepted justification is becomes actualized in the person when that person accepts Jesus personally. Thus, the universal provision of justification should not be confused with actualized justification which is far from universal. That is, not every person wants God's gift of free salvation by grace.

There is one more point that, for this question, is just as important - texts like Prov 11:20, 21, 17:15, 24:23, 24 (quoted by the OP) are discussing civil jurisprudence and not eternal life and the associated divine forgiveness of sins. Let there be no doubt that Christ's salvation from an earthly, civil jurisprudence point of view is fundamentally UNFAIR!!

  • 2 Cor 5:21, God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

That is, Jesus was treated as we deserve so that we can be treated as He deserved. That is supremely unfair and I am very glad about that and thank God daily for its "unfairness".

APPENDIX - God saved all people (but not all people accept)

  • John 1:29, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.”
  • John 3:16, “God so loved the world that He gave …”
  • John 12:32, “I [Jesus] … will draw all people to myself.”
  • John 12:47, “… for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.”
  • Acts 17:30, “God … commands all people everywhere to repent.”
  • Rom 3:23, 24, “… for all have sinned … and all are freely forgiven...”
  • Rom 5:8, 10, “… while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. … if, while were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him by the death of His Son, …”
  • Rom 5:15, “But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s [Adam’s] offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to the many.” [Note the same word, “many” applies to all people.]
  • Rom 5:18, “Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all people, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all people, resulting in justification of life.”
  • Rom 11:32, “For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”
  • 2 Cor 5:14, “…we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.”
  • 2 Cor 5:18, 19, “…God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ …”
  • 1 Tim 2:3, 4, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
  • 1 Tim 2:6, “[Jesus Christ] gave Himself as a ransom for all people.”
  • Titus 2:11, “For the grace of God appeared bringing salvation to all people.”
  • Heb 2:9, “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.”
  • 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
  • 1 John 2:2, “He Himself [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours [Christians to whom John writes] only but also for the whole world.”
  • Isa 53:6, “We all like sheep have gone astray … and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
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  • You have quoted all verses about the sacrificial atonement while assuming that they imply what I called a fake justification. You are not giving any argument and reason why any of the verse especially "justified freely by grace" (or the OP verse God justifies ungodly) by default implies the fake justification, which is the very point of the Q. Why some believe so, what's the exegesis, logic, consistency in the belief? Christ's atonement has nothing new, the sacrificial system existed already. Atonement doesn't mean fake justification. Not an answer at all if you just quote verses & assume.
    – Michael16
    Commented Jun 11, 2021 at 14:24
  • The OP is asking to explain with exegesis and prove the position of fake justification as opposed to real justification- where God's justification is recognition of man's righteousness due to his repentance and obedience/faith. In fake justification god justifies sinners falsely, giving them a fake certificate of justification when they are really not; ie. contrary to truth and reality.
    – Michael16
    Commented Jun 11, 2021 at 14:25
  • @Michael16 - that suggests that you do not understand what justification is two separate sphere - of eternal life and civil jurisprudence - they are separate as stated above.
    – Dottard
    Commented Jun 11, 2021 at 23:57
  • What makes you think "justified freely by grace" means justified falsely? Try to understand the question, it is about false justification, not grace justification. The requirement of justification being changed from works of law to faith in Christ doesn't mean the nature of God and justice changed, and he started being an abomination by falsely justifying the ungodly wicked. God cannot change from being just and holy. You somehow assume grace means God ceased being just and righteous. Grace is only the liberty from the law. It is not liberty from God's justice.
    – Michael16
    Commented Jun 14, 2021 at 17:39
  • @Michael16 - you have expressed it well - but Rom 3:23-26 says that God freely forgives sinners to justify Himself. Please do not confuse God's free justification with that is a civil court which is what Proverbs is discussing.
    – Dottard
    Commented Jun 14, 2021 at 21:38
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Two very distinct concepts are conflated by the OP’s question: God’s mercy and his justice.

“The Lord will judge his people” (Heb 10:30). But unlike human justice, God’s judgment is always fair and true because he alone sees the “motives of human hearts” and there is nothing that can be hidden from his eyes (1 Cor 4:5).

  • And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him to whom we must answer. –Heb 4:13

  • For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil. –Ec 12:14

The verses in Romans 4 (vv 5-8) and Psalm 32 (v 1) refer, not to God’s judgment, but to his mercy. If God did not show mercy, that is, if he did not forgive, men would have no hope. For “no one alive is righteous” before God (Ps 143:2). It is by God’s mercy, not by our righteousness, that we are justified.

  • To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, because we have rebelled against Him; –Daniel 9:9

  • If You, Lord, were to keep account of guilty deeds, Lord, who could stand? 4 But there is forgiveness with You, So that You may be revered. –Psalm 130:3-4

We are called to imitate both God’s justice and his mercy.

  • Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. –Lk 6:36

  • Be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. –Eph 4:32

If it could ever be said that a parent is unjust for forgiving his children, then I will choose the injustice of God for having mercy on me, a sinner.

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  • Nhi, your answer is good but missing the point. Q is asking about the nature of justification or forgiveness, as you say. God doesn't or can never forgive unrepentant sinners. The same way, his forgiveness does not contradict with justice bec the person repents and follows God, in turn receive mercy. If God justifies falsely justify sinners, he violates justice with mercy, with a forged false justice, and such a thing is an abomination to God. Paul never said such an abominable thing. Sinners r justified ie. counted righteous. It doesn't mean a false justification as reformers believe.
    – Michael16
    Commented Jun 14, 2021 at 14:39
  • You also presume & reiterate that grace, mercy means God changing his nature and abandoning justice; and that mercy justice contradict each other. You should focus on proving these things in the answer. The implications of such a radical view that destroys God's immutability and righteousness, making him an abomination by his own standards. Justification means reckoning righteous, not falsely justifying one as righteous.
    – Michael16
    Commented Jun 14, 2021 at 17:43
  • I fully agree with your idea of "injustice". @Michael16 appears to be missing his own point.
    – Dottard
    Commented Jun 14, 2021 at 21:40
  • I think I should make a new topic asking how some people (Baptists and Calvins) see mercy and justice as mutually exclusive. They say mercy is injustice.
    – Michael16
    Commented Jun 15, 2021 at 10:11
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    @Michael16 Although we all have our theological biases and disagreements are to be expected, what I like about this site is how it brings people together around a shared love of Scripture. Here, this saying seems especially true - that which unites us is far greater than that which divides us.
    – Nhi
    Commented Jun 15, 2021 at 14:43

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