The Problem of Luke 21's meteorological imagery!

Question

Luke only quotes the part of the question that the disciples ask the Lord about the destruction of Jerusalem, not his second coming (i.e., the end times).

Luke 21:7 “Teacher, but when will these things be? (that not one stone of the temple shall be left upon another) And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

How could we then conclude that the following verse is about the second coming?

Luke 21:25 "25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring"

Is it possible these "signs" happened already in 70AD?

Answer 1

There are some (eg "Preterists") that believe the answer to the OP's question is a definite "Yes!" Others disagree.

We must recall that none of the four gospel writers recorded everything that Jesus said or did (eg, John 20:30, 31, 21:25). This is one of the main reason for the four gospels - to gain a more complete picture of the greatest life ever lived - that of Jesus Christ.

Therefore, the fact that Luke did not record some detail does not mean it did not occur. John records nothing of this conversation. Mark's account is similar to Luke's. However, Matthew record's the conversation between Jesus and the disciples as follows:

Matt 24:3 - While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said,

• “when will these things [the destruction of the temple] happen, and
• what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

The fact that Mark and Luke did not record the second part of the question simply illustrates several points:

• the need for literary economy
• the idea among Jews at the time thought that the destruction of the great Jerusalem temple would be synonymous with the end of the age.
• that the gospel writers were truly wrote independently of each other

Answer 2

Luke's reference to Theophilus (Luke 1:3; Acts 1:1) points to Luke writing the two books together. The abrupt ending of Acts indicates the data of the books. It stopped there because the rest hadn't happened yet, thus before 70 A.D. If Luke wrote Acts as a defense of Paul to the Roman government and Luke's Gospel was a precursor explaining as well as defending Christianity, then what Luke left out might be because it would have been offensive to the Roman government. See:

How possible is it that the Gospel of Luke and Acts were written for Paul’s defense?

Answer 3

Yes. Luke 21:25 is apocalyptic language which YHVH used throughout the old testament prophecies for the downfall of a nation and its rulers. The symbolism is set forth in Joseph's dream from Gen. 37:9 which his father correctly interprets in vs. 10. The sun was his father, the moon was his mother, and the eleven stars were his brothers. The sun being the highest ruler in that family unit becomes a symbol for a king of a nation, the moon as the next highest ruler applies to a queen or other secondary ruler of a nation, and the stars being symbols for lesser rulers such as princes, governors or magistrates. Suns no longer shining, moons darkening, stars falling all indicate that they are removed from power.

This apocalyptic language is not literally describing an end of the physical cosmos, but the end of a nation's existence, or change in the rulers of that nation.

Excerpts from my blog post ...Judgement Language in the Old Testament

A Coming of the Lord, also a Day of the Lord, is used when God is pronouncing judgment against a nation, or nations. Isaiah is filled with this figurative language of judgments against the nations. Due to their several rebellion, their idolatry, turning their backs on God, their prideful natures and delight in their own strength, their scorn and willfulness, their fraud, lies and deceit; He pronounces the captivity of Israel, the downfall of Moab, Damascus, Ethiopia, Egypt, Babylon, Arabia, Tyre, and others across the desert lands of the Middle East.

The agents He used to bring forth His judgment were the armies of the surrounding nations, the Assyrians, Medes, Persians, and Babylonians; He also used famines and droughts. They are His rods, and messengers. All of the prophecies are described as “days of the Lord”, “Comings of the Lord”. The judgments are expressed in like figurative words that become recognizable to the student of the Bible, and are understood that they are metaphors. God used metaphors that we can understand as frightening and terrible things coming, which we learn to recognize as judgment upon evil doers. (Bold emphasis is mine.)

Is. 13:9-13 (concerning Babylon):

”9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.” (KJV)

Suns and moons and stars are metaphors for rulers of high places, princes and principalities (Eph. 3:10). The suns, moons, and stars occupy the “heavens” of that kingdom, or nation; which heavens are the palaces and and abodes of the rulers of the lands.

A king had power over an area or region to his borders, all under the ultimate authority and rule of God. The king’s dominion was a type of heaven as he was allowed to rule at God’s will (Jer. 1:10; 12:17). Those kingly dominions are the heavens that can be shaken.

Removing the light of the sun, or the stars means their power and authority is removed. Those rulers are thrown down to earth – removed from office, and have no more authority over the people.

The “earth” is the land, or living space of the people under that nations’ heaven. Removing the earth out of its place is to remove that nation from among the all the nations around it. ...

See how this compares to the same shaking of Hebrews:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved,... (Heb. 12:26-28, KJV)

More judgment language from my blog post -

Is. 23:11 ( against Tyre): “He stretched out his hand over the sea, he shook the kingdoms…..”

Is. 24.23: “Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.”

Is. 26:21: ”For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.”

Is. 30:26: “Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the Lord bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.”

Is. 30:30: “And the Lord shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.”

Is. 34:4: “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.”

All of these were judgments prophesied against the nations who had sinned against God. He was pruning them, humbling them, purging and refining; calling them back to Him. Each time He warned the nation(s) before He delivered His judgment. He always provided opportunity to repent. He is long-suffering. And, notice that He is calling other nations back to Him, not just Israel!

This figurative language is used throughout the other prophets, as well. Notice the similarity in Jeremiah 4:13:

“Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.” (KJV) ...

Interspersed throughout the national judgments in Isaiah are the promises of the remnant, the foundation, the cornerstone, the rock of Israel, the Messiah. Notice especially Is. 2:2:

”And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.” (KJV)

This was a promise, a prophecy of the coming of His spiritual kingdom. When was His Kingdom established? Beginning with John the Baptist, through Jesus’ earthly ministry, His death at the cross, His resurrection, confirmed with power on the day of Pentecost, with the broadcasting (probate) of the new covenant by the testimony and writings of the Apostles throughout the lands, and in finality with the removal of the old sacrificial covenant at the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

So, His spiritual kingdom was established in the last days, or in the first century AD, which were the last days of the old covenant....

Jesus' prophecy recorded Luke 21 are of the end times of the old Mosaic covenant and that old animal sacrificial temple that ruled over the "earth" of Judea in the 1st century AD. The signs of the sun and the moon and the stars were the fall of those Jewish rulers of the Jewish nation that had rejected the promised Messiah and crucified Him.

Christ's second coming was promised to that same generation which saw His first coming, His first appearance. Only those of that generation that saw Him, spoke with Him, touched Him could have a second appearance of Him (Heb. 9:28). No other generation has had a first appearance of Him, so no other generation could have a second appearance of Him.

The end times or last days spoken of in the scriptures were always defined as the last days of the tribes of Israel (Gen. 49), the last days of the Mosaic covenant (all of Heb), and the last days of that old sacrificial temple in Jerusalem (Matt 24; Mark 13; Luke 21, and all of Revelation).

The Bible never discusses the end of the physical cosmos. The idea that the end was about the end of the physical earth is a direct result of misunderstanding God's apocalyptic judgment language.

Further scriptural proof:

It's Not the End of the World - Part IV: Judgment Language in Both...

The Signs of Revelation - Part I: The Time of His Coming

Testing the Spirits - Part II: The End

Coming In the Clouds - Judgment

Ezekiel in Revelation - Part III: Jerusalem...

Frequent Mistakes - Part IV: Where Was All the World

Answer 4

Is it Possible These Signs Happened in 70 A.D.?
It is not only possible,it is most probable! Jesus, his disciples, and the authors of the Gospels were of a Semitic background. Their culture, literature, and figures of speech were drenched in the language of the Mideast. They were not occidental in their thinking or expressions.

And therein lies the cause of most of the misunderstandings of Bible readers in the West when it comes to interpreting the metaphors and figures of speech in the New Testament.

An in-depth survey of the Tanakh (Old Testament) literature reveals the way to guiding our interpretation of the New Testament passages. And when we do so, we discover that many scriptures considered "apocalyptic" (future cosmic turbulence) is not so, but in reality are metaphors describing historic events during Israeli history.

• For example, the same imagery used in Luke 21:25, occurs in Isaiah 13:9-13, 24:23, 30:26, and describes in grand terms the fall of the nation of Babylon and its rulers.
• In Ezekiel 32:7 this same picturesque language is used to portend the downfall of Egypt and her rulers...same meteorological elements as Luke used!
• The prophet Joel also employed the heavenly objects to picture the downfall of Zion (Sion) and her rebellious rulers. (Joel 2:10-11, 3:15)

Corrupt Israel
So here in Luke (and Matthew 24) God is foretelling in no uncertain terms, that Jerusalem, the Temple, and its rulers, are to be destroyed! And God is using this same language found in Jewish literature that the disciples would be familiar with. [See Matthew 23 to confirm that it is Israel that is the subject of judgment!]

End of the Age
Because some westerners are led astray by the terms, end of the age (Matthew 24:3), note also, the fact that this word for "completion of the age" in Greek, used by the disciples, is not the same as the word for the end of the age used by Jesus in Matthew 24-5. Whereas the disciples were thinking that such a massive destruction would usher in the "end of the world" (synteleios), Jesus spoke only of the end of an era (telieos)---that is, the end of the Jewish nation and era! (Which happened in 67-70 A.D.)

Resources
For in depth verse-by-verse commentary on the Olivet Discourse (including Luke 21) see TIMES, THEY ARE A'CHANGING by Raymond Grant, and MATTHEW 24 by Marcellus Kik. The signs in the heavens are explained.

Answer 5

The context of both Matthew's reference and Luke's reference to Christ's coming to us again contain a common phrase to clearly show Jesus has yet to return. We have yet to see the Son of Man in this context. This nearly identical phrase is "they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud [or 'on the clouds of heaven' from Matthew] with power and great glory".

Such an event would prove unreliable if thought to have already occurred and yet here we are without this Son of Man's full and worldwide appearance ("all the tribes of the earth will mourn"). Nothing in history shows this has happened yet, which seems in context a cataclysmic event in both of these sections of scripture.

Scripture is multiplied at this expectation of God ruling in person on planet Earth, but this is not the question.

"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

• Matthew 24:30,31

"And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

• Luke 21:25-28

This promise of Jesus' second coming to gather us to himself was promised many times by Jesus and yet here after Jesus was taken up came two men (angels?), who encourage our expectations alongside these first disciples. This promise here fits nicely with what Jesus already said.

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

• Acts 1:9-11

To address the other event noted and the specifics about this question here, which event seems to have happened accordingly as written in Luke 21:20-24 in 70AD in which Jerusalem was destroyed - this other statement of Jesus about coming in clouds of power glory inserts something new in which no prophets from the Old Testament nor the followers of Jesus in the New Testame quite understood all the way to Acts 1, where the apostles were still asking about the Kingdom of Jesus. This 'something' is the age of the Gentiles. The next verse in Luke 21:25 begins with the word 'And'. From verse 24 to 25, this 'And' shows the extension of time in which we have been waiting until the fulfillment of Jesus' final return to Earth.

So these are two different events in Luke 21 (70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and Jesus' coming again). The specific signs referenced by Jesus in verse 25 of Luke 21 will solely accompany Jesus' return to Earth.

George Eldon Ladd addressed many of these questions and concerns in some of his books, if you want to search further.