Timeline for In Hebrews 1:3 does χαρακτηρ της υποστασεως αυτου say that Jesus is the same substance or similar substance to God?
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| Oct 13, 2022 at 7:29 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | @Down-voter Hey, my anonymous pal! Please, be as kind as to lay down your objections, for the matter is serous and you may be right and I wrong, in which case I will readily embrace the salubrious truth you will offer. Thanks in advance! | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 22:42 | history | edited | Levan Gigineishvili | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| S Oct 14, 2017 at 19:12 | history | mod moved comments to chat | |||
| S Oct 14, 2017 at 19:12 | comment | added | Caleb | Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 19:09 | history | edited | Levan Gigineishvili | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 14, 2017 at 19:08 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | I thought that just mentioning it was fairly enough, for it is such a classics, but I will give a full reference to you here and up in the post also: Greek-English Lexicon with a Revised Supplement. Eds. H.G. Liddell, R. Scott, H.S. Jones & R. McKenzie. Clarendon Press, Oxford: 1996. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 18:43 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | Liddell and Scott is a general dictionary dealing with also koine texts, and I have given the reference of them: Plutarch whom I have twice cited lived AD 46-120, just the time of the full-fledged koine. But you do not seem to have read carefully, or even adequately responded, objected to any of my arguments. If you will, out of sudden, desire to answer my last question about Logos and Jesus relation, I will read it with an interest, if not, have a good time! ciao :) | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 18:25 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | Lexicon is the Unabridged Liddell & Scott, which is indicated there, and more than that I went to all the references one-by-one, even cited the texts. But why should I post a general question to all in order to know your opinions? Moreover, I am not interested in this question, for it is clear for me, so have no reason to post it. If you want to dodge the answer, who can force you not to do so, it's a free country. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 18:18 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | You are speaking there about Cowell law, about which I haven't read and have no time for it, moreover responding to some other question, and this made me even dizzier. So please, spare me and answer here, in few lucid words. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 18:00 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | I would like you to answer me shortly and plainly, if you please, for in that link there were tons of discussions and I quickly got dizzy. So, please, be as kind to answer my last question. P.s. I remembered! Islam also identifies Logos with Jesus, both Sunis and Shias. Waiting for your clarifying answer. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 17:44 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | Pardon, again, before I post the question, answer me this: the entire Christian tradition, all Christian theologians of all kinds (Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Calvinist, Nestorian, Arian+JehowaWitnessian, Coptic, Armenian, Later-days-Saints-ian maybe there are others I do not know) IDENTIFY the Logos with Jesus following John's Gospel's prologue. So, what is your idea about that, and if you have no idea with this regard, pls. do not hide this ignorance or indecision as well. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 17:35 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | Pardon, let's make things clear: you say, Logos was the first work of God, through which He created everything being itself a creature. Now, what relationship is, according to you, of this Logos and Jesus? | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 17:08 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | I do not deny, but you have dodged the explanation of your strange Christology according to which: a) God created before all ages His Logos; b) this bodiless Logos is identical with human soul; c) in 1 AD Logos=human soul adopted also human flesh; and d) this flesh died together with this soul, and therefore only for three days in its entire history since creation universe remained without Logos, which was once again created (=resurrected) by God, but already without the aid of Logos, as before, when He was creating the world, for Logos was dead. Strange Christology! Like a fairy tale indeed! | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 16:45 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | In my post I have done so, and more, adduced the places from the texts. But again: you imply then, that before creation God created Logos' person as a "breath of life", so Logos floated in heavens like a human soul without body? So, in your opinion Logos is identical with human soul, and this soul then took a soulless body, a flesh, and ensouled it? And then when this body died, this pre-existent soul, that lived without body for aeons and aeons, died together with body, so that for three days Logos did not exist at all? Strange Christology, to say the least! And apparently unique in its kind. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 15:57 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | I allowed myself a joke, but no offense please! But seriously: and also, the comparison of moon and sun is not scriptural, and the "reflection" has another, quite distinct Greek word - ἀνάκλασις, from ἀνακλάω ("bend back"), which has nothing to do with the ἀπαύγασμα = "the effulgence of light", with no hint on reflection in your sense, that's why Vulgate has not "reflectio" but "splendor"; but I have made clear delineation between the "reflection" and ἀπαύγασμα "emanation"/"shining out"/"effulgence" already in my post. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 15:52 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | So, you now quarrel with all main Christian traditions: both Catholic/ Orthodox/ Protestant/Coptic/ Armenian/ Nestorian (homoousians), and Arian. Yes, Jesus committed his human soul to Father, but as Logos he never abandoned Him, remaining intact both before incarnation and after the death. Logos adopting human nature means Logos creating human nature for himself, and human nature means also human soul, so He created human soul for himself. But you, as Apolinarius believe he had no human soul, but against Apolinarius deny His divinity. You must establish new sect of Christianity, just kidding. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 15:20 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | Arius would have anathemized you alongside with the homoousians, for he would say, that Logos existed even before creation of the universe, albeit himself also was created as Father's instrument for creation, then this Logos took human nature, this human nature died on Cross, while Logos remained intact as before the incarnation and vivified the dead body together with the Father, just like he created the world together with the Father. So, you are not in camp of either Arius (a.k.a. Jehovah witnesses) or homoousians. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 14:38 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | This idea is as old as Arius himself, but no, he was more appreciative of Jesus, claiming His pre-existence and also His spiritual existence in no way was abolished by His physical death, for as Logos he lived after physical death just as before the incarnation, even according to Arius and his spiritual descendants - Jehovah witnesses. Other thing is that this idea is not reasonable, for me and so many good and conscientious theologians, if the textual evidence of the Gospels and their logic is followed in an unbiased way. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 14:29 | comment | added | Ruminator | Jesus is a reflector as the moon is a reflector, having no light of his own but only reflecting the glory of God. A full moon reflects 1/5th of the light of the sun, and only from the light side's surface. The sun is the greater light while the moon is the lesser light. The sun rules the day while Jesus is the light of the world that lies in darkness. The sun never varies while Jesus died and his light went out. Without Jesus God was still undiminished while without God Jesus is just a cold dark stone. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 14:02 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | And I have never said anywhere, God forbid, "he gives God his nature", but even other way about, God Father is the only Source and Principle who emanates from Himself His Imprint - the Son, but since this emanation is inseparable from Him, ergo also the Son is co-eternal to His eternal being. If one can say that Son gives nature to Father, then only in a qualified sense, not to damage the logic of causation, that Father is Father only in virtue of having Son. An analogy: rays do not give nature to the sun their source, but since no sun is without rays, so in a way they define the sun's nature. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 13:47 | comment | added | Levan Gigineishvili | Yes, you quote a wonderful quotation from the Wisdom: "brightness of everlasting light" means that this brightness is as everlasting as light itself, for it is absurd to even phanatsize about light without brightness. And I made lexicon entries too, at your suggestion, thanks. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 13:43 | history | edited | Levan Gigineishvili | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 14, 2017 at 13:13 | comment | added | Ruminator | Your notion that the Greek word χαρακτήρ suggests that by being a χαρακτήρ means that he gives God his nature is absurd. As is your assertion that we are not to understand Hebrews by the meaning of the Greek but rather by the way the word was redefined during the "Arian controversy". Your entire post is utter nonsense borne of a perverse addiction to dogma. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 13:02 | comment | added | Ruminator | Heb 1:3 is an allusion to the Wis. of Sol. 7: "24 For wisdom is... 25 For she is the breath of the power of God, and a pure influence flowing from the glory of the Almighty: therefore can no defiled thing fall into her. 26 For she is the brightness of the everlasting light, the unspotted mirror of the power of God, and the image of his goodness. 27 And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself, she maketh all things new: and in all ages entering into holy souls, she maketh them friends of God, and prophets." - Brenton LXX The created reflection not source. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 1:48 | comment | added | Ruminator | If you are going to define words please cite a lexicon. | |
| Oct 14, 2017 at 0:58 | history | edited | Levan Gigineishvili | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Oct 14, 2017 at 0:47 | history | answered | Levan Gigineishvili | CC BY-SA 3.0 |