15

A Blasphemy Which Requires Stoning There are three points in the Fourth Gospel at which the Jews respond to something Jesus said by wanting to kill Him. The first is in Chapter 5; the second in Chapter 8, and the third in Chapter 10. It is in the final event in which John includes the reason for stoning: 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. ...


11

The phrase in question is prōtotokos pasēs ktiseōs. But does this mean "firstborn of every creature" (distributive, as in the KJV), or "firstborn of all creation" (collective, as in ASV, RSV, NASB, NEB, NIV)? The collective seems to be preferred by what immediately follows: "all things" were created by him, through him, and for him (v. 16), and he is ...


10

The claim of Divinity The people sought to stone Jesus for blasphemy - the statement that put them over the edge, and would serve as their justification for trying to stone him again later (see John 10:31-33), wasn't simply that He insulted them or claimed to have existed since before the days of Abraham - He claimed something much more than that. Those well-...


8

I don't have a problem with the idea that Jesus existed in spiritual form pre-mortally--I in fact believe this is supported by other passages (a few examples here and here)--but I don't think that is the message this passage is intended to convey. False teaching The context of the preceding & succeeding verses is helpful in showing that John is ...


6

John 17:5 (NRSV): So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.\ Before the world existed, the Son existed because he had glory. John 8:58 "Truly, truly, I tell you," Jesus declared, "before Abraham was born, I am!" The context of the Son's existence in John 17:5 ...


6

Jesus is not implying anything. He is simply stating the fact that he was with God prior to all things coming into existence. John 1: Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. Colossians 1:16: For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions ...


5

I struggle to see how John 17:5 can be understood in any other way but as a testimony to the pre-incarnate existence of Jesus. The same idea is also present in V24. We see this in numerous other places such as: John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all ...


5

The statement "πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι" = "I am before Abraham came to be" here is a claim of pre-existence, not of identity with YHWH. According to John, Jesus consistently claimed to be sent from God (John 8:25-26), and claimed to be superior to Moses and Abraham. But not once did he claim identity with his father. In fact, Jesus ...


5

The NT certainly asserts, using the precedents of the OT that Jesus existed before His incarnation. We see this many times in the Bible, especially in the Gospel of John, such as: John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him ...


4

The problem with the Unitarian position is that it attempts to create a special meta-narrative by which it then makes special pleadings for verses that are troublesome. Thus, any "theory" about the nature of God must be jealously guarded against this very human problem. The Trinity and Arianism are NOT immune to this. The difficulty with ...


4

Does Angel of the Lord = Preincarnate Christ? Allow me to clarify something at the outset. I think there is a huge disparity between the terms “an angel of the LORD" and "the Angel of the Lord," although I'm not certain how someone can easily differentiate between the two. It seems to me that nothing other than context and evidence will ...


4

In the Gospels we have a number of incidents where the local Jewish leadership accused Jesus of blaspheming because He claimed equality with God. While some modern theologians might argue about these and what Jesus intended, the people at the time had no doubt. Matt 9:1-8, Mark 2:1-12, Luke 5:17-26 – Jesus is accused of blasphemy because He forgave a man’s ...


4

John 1:1-2 says ‘IN THE beginning there WAS THE Word, and the Word WAS WITH God, and the Word WAS God. He WAS IN THE beginning WITH God.’ Given a double reference, the emphasis of this text is about ‘the Word that WAS IN THE beginning WITH God.’ I plead to everyone to respect the context of this text and NOT try to pull anyone phrase out of the sentence ...


4

Jesus uses glory as the means to show He existed before His incarnation: 1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal ...


4

Passages about Jesus as God's right shows he is now in heaven, but does come from heaven and from the Father mean he was literally in heaven before he was born? This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out ...


3

This question is wrongheadedly put from the outset, for it affirms that it is even possible to interpret this passage in a sense that Jesus is “implying” something when in reality He is plainly, without even a particle of ambiguity and equivocation, asserting His not only pre-incarnate existence but pre-universe-creation co-existence with the Father. How can ...


3

This question is part of a far more general pattern between the OT and NT that takes the titles and unique attributes of Jehovah in the OT and applies them to Jesus in the NT. Unique Attribute OT Jehovah NT Jesus God Deut 4:35, 6:4, 32:39, Isa 44:6, 45:5, 6 Matt 1:22, 23; John 1:1, 18, 20:28, Col 2:9, Rom 9:5, Heb 1:8, 9, Tit 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, 1 Tim 3:16, ...


3

The phrase, "He is before all things" (αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων) has been interpreted in two broad ways: Christ exceeds all things in moral and authoritarian dignity Christ temporally preceded all things The Greek preposition "pro" (before) could sustain either meaning. To decide between these two we must examine the context of Paul's ...


3

What does it mean that Jesus is before all things (Colossians 1:17)? 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [ESV] 1/ Rewarded with the gift of immortality The first one described in the Bible as rewarded with the gift of immortality is Jesus Christ. That he did not possess immortality before his resurrection by God is seen ...


2

JESUS: The firstborn [prōtotokos] of all creation. What is the Bibles view of [prōtotokos] Paul wrote to the congregation of Colossae, Colossians 1:15-18 (NRSV) The Supremacy of Christ 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in[a]him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and ...


2

This claim of Jesus confirmed the conviction of the Jewish religious leaders that Jesus was a blasphemer as claiming His divinity, for they plainly say "we do not want to kill you for good deeds, but because being a man you make yourself God" (John 10:33), and "God" here does not mean a) any created being, even as elevated as angel or ...


2

David was a Jew, not a Christian. In Judaism, the Messiah is not God (the Greek word translated as "Christ" means Messiah). Christians have reinterpreted the Old Testament (the Hebrew Bible) to be about Jesus, when a Jewish reading says no such thing. The ancient Jews had no concept of a Man-God (i.e. Jesus Christ), so David was explicitly talking ...


2

What was hidden from David and other psalmists in the OT was revealed to Paul in the NT. Psalm 78:15 He split the rocks in the wilderness and gave them drink as abundant as the seas. Psalm 105:41 He opened a rock, and water gushed out; it flowed like a river in the desert. David uses rock poetically as a metaphor in Psalms 18:2 The LORD is my rock and ...


2

This argument cuts both ways. My post will make some uncomfortable. Those feeling weak in the knees may be relieved to know that there is a down-vote button just to the left and a flag button at the bottom of this post. If 2 Tim 1:9 is interpreted to indicate only notional pre-mortal existence, it is used to argue against pre-mortal existence for Jesus and ...


2

The expression contains 'days' and 'flesh' which would denote Jesus' lifetime from birth to death. I don't think this expression can be used to prove anything about pre-existence, myself. It brackets his time in flesh during 'days'. His bodily resurrection and ascension place him in the heaven of heavens, no longer subject to 'days'.


2

Most definitely and unequivocally, Jesus says that He existed in Heaven and descended from there, without, though, leaving the Father, for it is said that while He has descended He simultaneously has remained with the Father in Heaven (John 3:13) ("the Son of the Man who is in Heaven"). It is eternal and changeless theological 'momentum' that God-...


1

If one takes the whole OT in ensemble you will see a theme The theme of the seed. The seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent The serpent’s kind raped human women and mixed their seed with human seed giving rise to a hybrid of humans and heavenly beings called Nephilim Then God opts to reset this aberration of genetic corruption by wiping out ...


1

In Psalm 23 the shepherd is explicitly יְהוָֹה (Jehovah) I recognize others do not hold this view, but I believe in John 8:58 Jesus identifies Himself as Jehovah (compare Exodus 3:14) -- a more extended discussion of the passage on this question. "Before Abraham was I am" I understand this to be a claim to be the same Being who spoke to Moses, ...


1

Rocks Another question asks about the translation philosophy of the Septuagint (LXX) which, with one exception, replaced "rock" with some other term. Psalm 18 [17] is one example of rocks (plural) and how the LXX treats them: The LORD is my rock (סַֽלְעִי) and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock (צוּרִי), in whom I take refuge, my shield,...


1

Does “Jesus has come in the flesh” in 1 John 4:2 imply a fleshless preexistence? A short answer is "Yes". Jesus spoke many times of his prehuman heavenly life, he did not begin life on earth. John 6:38 (NASB) 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. John 3:13 (NASB) 13 No one has ascended ...


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