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Titus 1:2 KJV: "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."

My question is: where in other Scripture, mainly Old Testament Scripture (as opposed to other Scripture of Paul), does it specifically say that God made this promise "before the world began?"

7 Answers 7

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Paul had been deeply schooled in reading, memorizing, and understanding the ancient Hebrew scriptures, being "taught at the feet of Gamaliel" (Acts 22:3). All that before he had his vision of the risen Christ, leading to his conversion to faith in Christ. Thereafter, everything quickly fell into place, once Christ was given his proper place.

Due to Paul's meticulous explanations about Christ being, for example, the everlasting Son of God, showing his theology based on those Hebrew scriptures, his Christian understanding of the opening chapters of Genesis would provide a basis for saying what he said in Titus 1:2.

Paul would know, and believe, the promise God made to Adam and Eve at the point when they had just come under the condemnation of sin and death. After cursing the serpent, God said this to the serpent:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" Genesis 3:15 K.J.V.

This might well be said to be the first prophecy in the Bible; pointing to deliverance from condemnation to sin and death - to overcoming the hopelessness of their lost estate via one who would deal with all that brought in the devastation of sin and death. Note that this one is called "he" - and his symbolic 'heel' would be bruised but he would not be overcome or destroyed. On the contrary, he would overcome and destroy the serpent and his 'seed'.

When Paul's theology is examined, he often refers to the first Adam, and the last Adam - Christ. He often provides the Hebraic theology for showing the triumph unto life everlasting. This is the Christian's hope. And that Paul says God gave this sure promise "before the world began" indicates his understanding that, for God to instantly give that promise before the couple were put out of Eden shows God was not "caught on the hop"; God knew full well what he would need to do to keep his purpose in creation on track for its glorious outcome:

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." K.J.V. emphasis mine

This will be the fulfilment of the promise, when God brings in the new creation and the new humanity, in Christ. Therefore the Bible speaks of the 'woman' bringing forth a man-child, caught away to God in heaven, to defeat the attempts of the serpent (there called the great red dragon, 'that old serpent', called the devil and Satan - Revelation chapter 12 which details the outworking of the promise given in Genesis 3:15).

Then, at the end of that prophetic book, the Tree of Life appears once more, but this time in Heaven. Until then, the way to it, and the everlasting life it gives, has been debarred by God's flaming sword. That appeared in Eden, to prevent the sinning couple from partaking of it and so living forever. But because God knows the end from the beginning (Mat.28:20, Isaiah 46:10), he declared his eternal purposes back in Eden, and Paul then discovered the amazing extent of God's foreknowledge, and his eternal purposes that cannot be thwarted by anyone or anything. First stated to the first humanity in Eden. Fulfilled in the last Adam who 'owns' the second humanity, in Christ.

The world had only just begun when God showed he had decided to proceed with a material creation despite knowing what Satan would do. And he already knew how he would overcome all that to restore to perfection the corruption brought in by sin and death. He declared that glorious hope in his glorious promises, as recorded in Genesis 3:14, but every last, minute detail of that promise had to be determined by God before creation began; which is what the rest of the entire Bible demonstrates. And didn't Paul know it!

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  • So, in effect, you are saying that a perfect God knew before He created Adam and Eve that they were not going to obey Him.
    – Joanne
    Commented Sep 22 at 20:41
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    the fulfilment of the promise, when God brings in the new creation and the new humanity, in Christ. // God knows the end from the beginning Music to my ears and up-voted +1.
    – Nigel J
    Commented Sep 23 at 5:29
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My literal translation of Titus 1:2 reads:

in hope of life eternal, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time eternal

Note the word "eternal", αἰώνιος, can mean "eternal" or "the worlds as a spatial concept" (BDAG), but we will not consider this here.

Before answering this question let me observe that if God promised something before the "time eternal", that promise cannot be found in Scripture because that was well before the any Scripture was written!

Ellicott says this nicely when he observes:

Promised before the world began.—More accurately rendered, from eternal ages. The promise of eternal life was the result of a divine purpose fixed from eternity.

Indeed, Paul says in 1 Tim 1:9 -

He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

However, first time this promise of salvation is recorded in Scripture is famously found in Gen 3:15 -

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

Benson also succinctly observes in his comments about Titus 1:2 alluding to Gen 3:15 -

That this included a promise of eternal life to all believers has frequently been shown.

This promise of the Great messiah to come was repeated many times in Scripture beginning with Abraham who was promised that:

Gen 12:3 - I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” See also Gen 18:18, 22;18, Gal 3:8, etc.

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  • I observed what Ellicott did. You could translate it, "before time."
    – Perry Webb
    Commented Sep 21 at 1:32
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    While it may seem difficult to understand why God would create the world knowing that people would sin, the Bible reveals that His purpose was always to demonstrate His love and grace through the plan of salvation in Jesus Christ. God's eternal wisdom and sovereignty allowed Him to create a world where humans, despite their sin, could experience redemption and eternal life through Jesus—a plan set in motion before creation itself.
    – user95650
    Commented Sep 22 at 13:25
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    @Joanne- Yes, the idea that God's redemptive plan was established "before creation" is found in other parts of the Bible, not just Paul's writings.1. 1 Pet. 1:20 says Jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world. 2. Rev.13:8 calls Jesus the "Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world."3. John 1:1-3 shows Jesus, the Word, was with God at creation and part of God’s plan. 4. Eph.1:4-5 mentions God chose believers in Christ before the world was made. These verses together show that the concept of God’s eternal plan is shared by several New Testament authors, not just Paul.
    – user95650
    Commented Sep 22 at 20:29
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    The Old Testament supports the idea of God's eternal plan through: 1. Genesis 3:15 – The first prophecy of a coming Savior. 2. Isaiah 46:10 – God’s purpose established from the beginning. 3. Psalm 139:16 – God knew all our days before creation. 4. Jeremiah 1:5 – God knew and appointed people before birth. 5. Isaiah 53 – Prophecy of the Messiah's sacrifice. 6. Micah 5:2 – The Messiah's origin is from ancient times. These verses show that God's plan for salvation existed long before the world was made.
    – user95650
    Commented Sep 22 at 20:39
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    @Joanne-You're very welcome! I'm glad that 1 Peter 1:20 resonated with you. It's a powerful verse that clearly shows how God's redemptive plan through Jesus was set in motion even before the foundation of the world. It truly demonstrates God's foresight and love in preparing a way for salvation. You're right about Peter as well—his redemption and the role Jesus knew he would play (as mentioned in Matthew 16:18) is an inspiring testament to God's grace and purpose for individuals. Even in moments of failure, Peter's life shows how God can restore and use anyone for His kingdom.
    – user95650
    Commented Sep 23 at 21:58
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Answer

The answer is given in the very next verse itself.

“on hope of eternal life which the God who does not lie promised before the eternal times, BUT REVEALED in its own times in a proclamation of His Word” (Titus 1:2-3).

Explanation

So, we see that God made the promise to Himself (i.e., He planned it) before the eternal times, that is, to scientifically speak, ‘before time began’.

But this promise was revealed later, that is, again to use the scientific jargon, ‘after time began’, in the due time, especially when He started to proclaim His Word through Moses and the prophets.

Do we see any mention of such promise?

Yes.

“It is like the dew from Mount Hermon, falling on Zion's mountains, where the LORD has promised to bless his people with LIFE forevermore.” (Psalms 133:3).

Zion is the representative figure of Jerusalem that is the capital of the Promised Land. So God made His promise of eternal life to His people in the mountains near Jerusalem.

Again, do we see any such incident in the Old Testament (which the OP insists to find out)?

Yes.

“I call Heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you LIFE and death, the blessing and the curse. Therefore, choose LIFE, that you may LIVE, you and your seed” (Deut 30:19).

Oh, where are the mountains of Zion involved here?

“And it shall be when Jehovah your God shall bring you into the land (of Zion) to which you go to possess it, that you shall set the blessing on Mount Gerizim, and the curse on Mount Ebal” (Deut 11:29).

There it is.

God gave a promise and a choice to Israel.

[The details of how to do it are given in Deuteronomy 27:12-26. The actual thing took place in Joshua 8:30-35.]

Same Promise to Adam & Eve

The same God has given the same promise to the first human beings also:

“And out of the ground Jehovah God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food. The Tree of LIFE (life eternal) was also in the middle of the garden; also the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (death)” (Gen 2:9).

The same God gave the same choice to them too.

“And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden; but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die” (Gen 2:16-17).

Adam and Eve could eat from every tree including the “Tree of LIFE” which was a blessing. The only prohibited tree was the tree of curse. But unfortunately, human history took a cursed turn.

But God’s promise is open still to human beings. God renews it through Prophet Jeremiah:

“And you shall say to this people, So says Jehovah, Behold, I set before you the way of LIFE and the way of death” (Jer 21:8).

Conclusion

So God planned (promised Himself) the eternal life for humans before time began but He revealed it later when He started to write down His Word through His prophets.

We see the promise right from the Garden of Eden and onwards continuing in the New Testament through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

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  • The answer you gave, that it was revealed in the next verse, are Paul’s own words, so that don’t give me a clue whether this new revelation of foreknowledge is truth, because his own words alone wouldn't prove it. I can’t see where Jesus would reveal a new concept to him and not to His own disciples unless that concept was meant to be only used with the Gentiles; something like good cop-bad cop in interrogation, where Jesus’ disciples are the good cops and Paul is the bad cop. Even in that situation, the good cops would know of it, so where in their Scriptures is it revealed?
    – Joanne
    Commented Sep 23 at 17:54
  • You first wanted to prove Scripture with Scripture, especially OT. So I gave you Psalms 133:3, Deuteronomy, Genesis and Jeremiah references to prove when God revealed the promises to Israel as Paul stated in Titus 1:3. Now you complain that Jesus revealed to Paul but not to other apostles. This is simply untrue. Peter talks the same thing: “indeed having been foreknown before the foundation of the world, but revealed in the last times because of you” (1 Pet 1:20). Commented Sep 24 at 14:15
  • Besides, Paul also learned things initially from Peter (Gal 1:18). Later, he always made sure that he was going in the right direction by submitting his gospel preaching before Peter, John and James (Gal 2:2). I believe there is nothing Paul knows that Peter doesn't know. Commented Sep 24 at 14:16
  • Yes, I did want another verse, either in the OT or another person's writings in the NT which would prove the statement Paul made. None of the ones you listed in the OT proved to me whether God had established the salvation plan before the world began, or when the sin first occurred and was recorded. Preacher Marcus yesterday found the one you refer to in Peter, which answered my question. And I agree, there is nothing Paul knows that Peter doesn't know about the subject. Thanks for your efforts.
    – Joanne
    Commented Sep 24 at 18:05
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    Thanks Joanne. A +1 for you. Commented Sep 25 at 16:35
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Here is a different translation of the same verse to help get a grasp on something God promised before the ages commenced.

in hope of the Life of the Ages which God, who is never false to His word, promised before the commencement of the Ages.

There are things that Paul wrote about that you will never find in the Old Testament. That is because God kept some things secret until He revealed them through the apostle Paul, they were mysteries hidden in God, not in the scriptures.

we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained BEFORE the AGES to our glory, which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified; 1: Corinthians 2:7

So it looks like God kept some thing secret otherwise the Lord of glory may not have been crucified.

Now to Him who is able to strengthen you by my gospel and by the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery concealed for ages past Roman's 16:25

This particular mystery had been concealed in the past ages. It never showed up in the old Testament.

I became its servant by the commission God gave me to fully proclaim to you the word of God, the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints. Colossians 1:26

To proclaim good news—the untraceable riches of the Christ, and to cause all to see what [is] the fellowship of the secret that has been hid from the ages in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ, that there might be made known now to the principalities and the authorities in the heavenly [places], through the Assembly, the manifold wisdom of God, according to the purpose of the ages, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord. Ephesians 3:8-12

In verse eight above, we see there are some things that are untraceable.

◄ 421. anexichniastos ►

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance past finding out; unsearchable. From a (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of a compound of ekand a derivative of ichnos; not tracked out, i.e. (by implication) untraceable -- past finding out; unsearchable. see GREEK a

The OP brought up Acts 17:11 where the people examined the Scriptures to see if Paul's message was in accord with the Old Testament scriptures. They did not rely on Jewish tradition and teaching of the elders but studied scriptures themselves. Paul had been showing them from scriptures that Christ must suffer and rise from among the dead and that this one is Christ, the Jesus who he was announcing to them.

explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” Acts 17:3

The apostle Paul received revelations from the ascended glorified Christ and He showed him things that had never been seen, written or revealed before.

I received my message from no human source, and no one taught me. Instead, I received it by direct revelation from Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:12

Paul received revelations in installments and they went from glory to glory.

Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

In conclusion Paul use many Old Testament scriptures to verify who Christ was. He also was given revelations that are untraceable that you could never find in the Old Testament.

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  • I have no issue with Paul teaching Christ, what I am trying to prove is this new revelation of foreknowledge of Paul’s, which could cancel out free will. I don’t see where Jesus’ own disciples were teaching that. And what other Scriptures did the Bereans have those days than those from the Old Testament (Acts 17:11)?
    – Joanne
    Commented Sep 23 at 15:12
  • @ JoAnne thanks for your questions. God does determines things before hand as seen throughout scripture. Even Jesus told His disciples they did not choose him, but He chose them. The apostle Paul was also chosen by God, even against his "free will." It was through the will of God that he became an apostle as Colossians 1:1 says. God separated him and moved him on. Later Israel had been temporarily set aside because of their unbelief, then some of God's secrets and purposes are being revealed through the Apostle to the Gentiles. As I said in my post, you won't find them in the OT.
    – Sherrie
    Commented Sep 23 at 19:08
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    @Joanne- while Paul’s teachings introduce nuanced ideas about foreknowledge and predestination, they do not negate the essential teachings of Jesus on human responsibility and faith. The Bereans’ examination of Paul’s message in light of the Old Testament suggests that they sought to understand how the fulfillment of God’s promises in Christ aligned with their understanding of Scripture. Ultimately, both divine sovereignty and human free will play integral roles in the biblical narrative, reflecting the complexity of God's relationship with humanity.
    – user95650
    Commented Sep 24 at 2:32
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    @Joanne- and while Paul’s teachings on foreknowledge highlight God’s sovereignty and omniscience, they do not negate the reality of human free will. Instead, they coexist in a complex relationship where God’s plan is fulfilled through the genuine choices of individuals. This dynamic encourages believers to respond to God’s call, affirming both divine initiative and human agency in the process of salvation.
    – user95650
    Commented Sep 24 at 2:35
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    @Joanne I am glad Marcus found one that was convincing to you. You never know with a multitude of answers what will satisfy a question that's being asked and it's wonderful when one gets an answer that helps.
    – Sherrie
    Commented Sep 24 at 17:52
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To validate Paul's statement in Titus 1:2 which emphasizes the hope of eternal life as promised by God and preached by the prophets a pertinent Old Testament reference is Isaiah 52:7. This passage highlights the proclamation of good news, aligning directly with the message Paul conveys.

Titus 1:2 (NASB)

"in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,"

Isaiah 52:7 (NASB)

"How delightful on the mountains Are the feet of one who brings good news, Who announces peace And brings good news of happiness, Who announces salvation, And says to Zion, 'Your God reigns!'"

Connection to Titus 1:2

In Titus 1:2, Paul refers to the hope of eternal life that God promised "long ages ago." This promise of salvation is a recurring theme in the prophetic writings of the Old Testament. Isaiah 52:7 ties in with this idea, depicting messengers who announce salvation and the reign of God. This "good news" is the foundation for the hope of eternal life that Paul speaks of in his letter to Titus.

Additional Supporting Old Testament References (NASB)

  1. Isaiah 53:5 (NASB) "But He was pierced for our offenses, He was crushed for our wrongdoings; The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him, And by His wounds we are healed."

This prophecy speaks of the suffering servant, widely interpreted as a reference to Jesus, whose sacrifice offers eternal life.

  1. Jeremiah 31:33 (NASB) "For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: 'I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.'”

This passage speaks to the internal transformation promised by God, which aligns with the hope of eternal life through the new covenant.

  1. Isaiah 61:1 (NASB) "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the Lord anointed me To bring good news to the humble; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to captives And freedom to prisoners;"

This also reflects the messianic mission of proclaiming the good news, echoing the promise of salvation.

Conclusion

Isaiah 52:7 (NASB) reinforces Paul's assertion in Titus 1:2 (NASB) by showing that the promise of salvation and eternal life was foretold by the prophets. The good news announced in Isaiah is directly related to the eternal life God promised long ago, as Paul writes to Titus.

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  • What does the wording of your NASB Bible of "promised long ages ago" mean to you? Does it mean "before the world began" or "when it's first recorded in Scripture" (Gen. 3:15)?
    – Joanne
    Commented Sep 22 at 22:18
  • The phrase "promised long ages ago" in the NASB typically refers to God's promises that were made before time began, encompassing the idea of eternal purposes rather than merely the first recorded promise in Scripture. This wording emphasizes the timelessness of God's plans, suggesting that these promises existed in God's mind and intention prior to creation itself, rather than being limited to specific moments or events recorded in the Bible, such as Genesis 3:15. Thus, it leans more toward the idea of "before the world began.
    – user95650
    Commented Sep 22 at 23:42
  • In the original Greek, it often translates to "promised before eternal times" (προχρονίως, meaning "before times"). This indicates a sense of timelessness and eternity, supporting the idea that the promise was established by God before the foundation of the world. The use of "ages" or "times" in translations can imply a broader timeline that encompasses God's eternal plan, reinforcing that this promise was not just noted at a certain point in history but existed in God's purpose from the beginning. Thus, the original Greek leans more toward the interpretation of "before the world began."
    – user95650
    Commented Sep 22 at 23:44
  • In the Hebrew context, when we talk about promises, especially those related to covenants, we're looking at God's faithfulness throughout history. For instance, in Genesis 3:15, the promise of redemption is made, but it doesn't specifically say "before the world began." However, in Jewish thought, there's a recognition that God's plans and purposes have existed since before creation. So, while the Hebrew doesn't have the same terms as the Greek for "long ages ago," it still captures the idea that God's promises are timeless. it focuses His commitment to us, even if phrasing is different.
    – user95650
    Commented Sep 22 at 23:50
  • Here are some concise scholarly sources you can read. 1. Baker, David W. The Theology of the Book of Genesis. Cambridge University Press, 2015. Discusses divine promises in Genesis. 2. Waltke, Bruce K. Genesis: A Commentary. Zondervan, 2001. Analyzes the significance of Genesis 3:15. 3. Duguid, Iain M. Genesis: History, Fiction, or Neither? Crossway, 2009. Examines theological implications of promises in Genesis. 4. Fee, Gordon D., and Douglas Stuart. How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth. Zondervan, 2014. Addresses literary forms and covenants in Scripture.
    – user95650
    Commented Sep 22 at 23:58
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Young's translates this as:

upon hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages, (Titus 1:2, YLT)

There is an Hebraic concept in the phrase "before the world began" or "before the foundation of the world" which does not translate literally in the English. That phrase to the Jews meant before the Law was given. Their world, their culture, their beliefs were centered in the Law thereby their existence was counted from their Exodus from Egypt and the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai.

From Clarke's Commentary at Titus 1:2:

Which God, that cannot lie, promised — We have often seen that the phrase, the foundation of the world, means the Jewish economy, and, before the foundation of the world, the times antecedent to the giving of the law. This is evidently the meaning here. See 2 Timothy 1:9-11.

Supposing the word αιωνιων in this verse to signify eternal, says Dr. Macknight, the literal translation of προ χρονων αιωνιων would be, before eternal times; but that being a contradiction in terms, our translators, contrary to the propriety of the Greek language, have rendered it before the world began, as Mr. Locke observes on Romans 16:25. The true literal translation is before the secular times, referring us to the Jewish jubilees, by which times were computed among the Hebrews, as among the Gentiles they were computed by generations of men. Hence, Colossians 1:26, The mystery which was kept hid απο των αιωνων και απο των γενεων, from the ages and from the generations, signifies the mystery which was kept hid from the Jews and from the Gentiles. Source: Clarke's

In addition to the prophesy of Christ in Gen. 3:15, we have the promise of the savior Yeshua to Abraham:

and God saith unto Abraham, `Let it not be wrong in thine eyes because of the youth, and because of thy handmaid: all that Sarah saith unto thee -- hearken to her voice, for in Isaac is a seed called to thee. (Gen. 21:12, YLT)

that blessing I bless thee, and multiplying I multiply thy seed as stars of the heavens, and as sand which [is] on the sea-shore; and thy seed doth possess the gate of his enemies; (Gen. 22:17, YLT) also

The sceptre turneth not aside from Judah, And a lawgiver from between his feet, Till his Seed come; And his [is] the obedience of peoples. (Gen. 49:10, YLT)

Summed up in Gal. 3:16,

and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, And to thy seed,' which is Christ; (YLT)

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  • Are you saying that what Paul meant by his phrase "before the world began," is he meant "before the Law was given?"
    – Joanne
    Commented Sep 22 at 21:48
  • That is the sense that Clarke's commentary states. It is a Jewish concept, just as they called the temple "heaven and earth." When was the first temple established? Under the Mosaic law, which God called "heaven and earth" in Deu. 4:26 & 31.26. Heaven and earth then was another creation, the world of the Mosaic covenant.
    – Gina
    Commented Sep 22 at 23:00
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Does not God wish us to share His eternal Kingdom with us? Yes, He wishes that, and that is the purpose why He sent His only-begotten, co-eternal God-Son to us, who having become man, suffered and died on cross, and has risen from dead.

Now, was this purpose not purposed by Him before He created the world? Impossible! So, that is what Paul says. He does not refer to any specific quote from the Holy Scriptures, but to something greater and more principal: a theological common sense.

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  • So, it looks to me like you are saying that Paul, not referring to any specific quote from the Holy Scriptures, had a greater and more principled theological common sense than the Saviour Jesus Christ who stood up to read the Scriptures, quoted from them, taught His disciples of them, lived and died by them; and the Old Testament was His only Bible.
    – Joanne
    Commented Sep 22 at 20:58
  • @Joanne Yes, the Lord both quoted OT and a l s o said things not written anywhere; so does Paul, and so should do any truth-respecting and self-respecting man. Commented Sep 22 at 21:10
  • How then do you distinguish truth from error?
    – Joanne
    Commented Sep 22 at 23:18
  • In addition to my comment above: How then do you distinguish truth from error, Jesus, when contending with the Devil, quoted Scripture (Matt. 4:1-11).
    – Joanne
    Commented Sep 22 at 23:29
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    @Joanne Yes, I agree, Homer's and Plato's writings aren't Bible, although they also are not infrequently conveying noble truth and correct insights. Commented Sep 25 at 20:04

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