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Rev. 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Since everyone sins, why does the author say "all liars" etc shall have their part in the lake of fire"? Is this text teaching that believers who lie could lose their salvation and end up in the lake of fire?

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    – Dottard
    Feb 26, 2023 at 21:28
  • See also hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/59785/…
    – Dottard
    Feb 26, 2023 at 21:41
  • No, this question would be off-topic on Christianity.SE. Instead it should be read as an exegetical question about Rev 21:8. The doctrine of immutable salvation is not required to analyse that passage.
    – curiousdannii
    Feb 27, 2023 at 4:21
  • The question is simply questioning the veracity of scripture rather than seeking the meaning of scripture. There is a fate for all liars. This is indisputable. He that is born of God doth not practice sin needs to be considered.
    – Nigel J
    Feb 27, 2023 at 13:31
  • Hi Julie! Try asking God directly, He's not afraid of your hard questions regarding salvation. In Isaiah 1:18, he says "bring it on! I'll prove it to you!" Feb 27, 2023 at 17:24

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One trying to understand salvation correctly should not begin with Revelations.

Whether one is 'saved always saved' is irrelevant.

Those who God has called to Jesus (no one comes to the Father but thru me John 14:6 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them John 6:44) and are faithful to the end of this age are the sons of God and will be part of the 1st res.

We'll need to go back a bit to set the scene for Rev 21:8

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years. Rev 20:6

Who are they reigning over? Who are they priests to?

All the rest of humanity that is still alive after Jesus's return and are not raised to new life with true spirit life - as Jesus has. Obviously, 1000 years is a long time and humanity will continue to produce offspring and die. After the 1000 years, there is a second res.

The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. v5

Those living during the 1000 years and all those since Adam that ever lived (not including the prophets etc who have already been raised to new life) will be raised back to a physical/mortal life into a world of peace, truth and love made possible by the rule of Jesus and his priests etc. and the absence of the devil during that 1000 years without the constant barrage of evil, lies and deception.

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. v2

After that, he must be released for a brief period of time. v3

This is the time when all unsaved humanity will have to make a choice - for life/salvation in Christ, or if not, then there is no more life for them and they go to the second death - never to be seen ever again.

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Rev 21:8

This is the second death to remove all those who choose to remain in their sin and have refused the grace offered in Jesus blood. This has nothing to do with the saved and the righteous in Christ. These have had their sin removed - covered in Jesus blood which is sufficient to cover all sin for all men - but all have to accept the offer God makes. No good works or any other means of salvation is possible.

Several misconceptions persist regarding the resurrections and who loves and who dies.

An irrational idea persists that the 1000 years is not, or cannot be literal - yet mentioned 6 times in the same passage! Several other erroneous ideas about the end of this age and the next are refuted here.

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    The important thing in the last paragraph is that the terms "murderers", "liars", etc. refer to the person's current state, not their past behaviour. That I lied last week doesn't make me a liar. That I intend to lie in the future is what makes me a liar. As you say, it refers only to "those who choose to remain in their sin and have refused the grace offered in Jesus blood". Mar 7, 2023 at 14:33
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The English word "save" or "salvation" is polysemantic. It has at least the following meanings:

  1. It could mean being physically rescued at a point in time situation (Exodus 14:13, H3444, יְשׁוּעָה yeshuah). In this case, you may need to be rescued again. You can be rescued or saved multiple times. The only places in the OT where yeshuah is used unambiguously as saving people from sins are in Eze 36:29 and 37:23.

  2. It could mean being accepted officially by a certain church/denomination. When you lose your membership, you lose this salvation.

  3. It could describe a shallow Christian who is a Christian in name only (1 John 2:19). He looks like a Christian and talks like a Christian. Instead of serving God, he wants God to serve him. After a while, he goes away because he no longer finds God useful.

  4. It could describe a serious Christian. He thought he was in the faith (2Co 13:5, Col 1:23) and performs Christian works sincerely for years but departs from the faith eventually (1Tim 4:1).

  5. It could mean that your name is written in the book of life. Later, God may erase or at least threaten to erase that name and you may lose this type of salvation, Ex 32:32, Rev 3:5.

  6. Finally, it could mean being saved from the physical now onto eternity. In this case, it requires the Paraclete to dwell in you presently. You cannot lose the Paraclete in you. This is the concept of born of the Spirit], 1 Peter 1:

23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

The word "save" or "salvation" is polysemantic. Depending on your definition of salvation, you can definitely lose your salvation.

The question that one should ask is not "Once saved always saved?". The better question is whether you have the Paraclete Indwelling Spirit in you.

Can you lose your salvation?

Yes, in many many ways: John 15:2, Romans 11:22, Hebrews 6:4, 1 Corinthians 15:2.

Can you lose your Paraclete?

No. The Paraclete does what he does. He chooses to dwell in a person by making a direct connection with the person's human spirit permanently.

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It is possible that "all liars" refer to the previously mentioned - the adulterers, murderers, idolaters etc. - for all of them are liars in a certain sense, namely in the sense that being Christians in name, they betray and belie their status and calling in deeds; they deceive people by pretending to be Christians, but life of Christ, the grace of Christ does no more work in them to save them, and thus they are liars, worse than those who are at least not formally/outwardly Christians and do the same things.

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Paul claimed not all who are descended from Israel are Israel (Romans 9:6), is an allusion to "not all claimed to be Christians are Christians".

John called these people "liars", did not refer to people who do not believe in Jesus, he called some Christians are "liars". The target audience of the scripture is always the chosen people (Israelites in OT; Christians in NT). Others people are referred as "gentiles", their verdict is dead undisputable. Only the chosen people can chose "Life or Dead"; "Blessings or Curses".

John had explained what his "liars" meant in 1 John

1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness (continue to sin), we lie and do not live out the truth.

2:4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

2:22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

2:20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. (NIV)

It is correct even a true Christian does sin sometimes. In his discussion in 1 John, John comforted the Christians with these words;

1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. (NIV)

Therefore when we walk in the light, we are unlikely to sin. So if we do sin, confess our sins, and we have Jesus Christ as our advocate, and God is not a liar, our sins will be forgiven.

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