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The well-known Psalm 22 begins with the following as the first verse (KJV):

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

It is common to understand this verse as proof God forsook the speaker. However, the Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament appears to understand this as a poetic expression of how the author feels, contrasted with his real relationship with God (emphasis added):

The sufferer feels himself rejected of God; the feeling of divine wrath has completely enshrouded him; and still he knows himself to be joined to God in fear and love; his present condition belies the real nature of his relationship to God; and it is just this contradiction that urges him to the plaintive question, which comes up from the lowest depths: Why hast Thou forsaken me? But in spite of this feeling of desertion by God, the bond of love is not torn asunder; the sufferer calls God אלי (my God), and urged on by the longing desire that God again would grant him to feel this love, he calls Him, אלי אלי. That complaining question: why hast Thou forsaken me? is not without example even elsewhere in Psalm 88:15, cf. Isaiah 49:14.

In fact, after the speaker makes requests to be delivered, he says in verse 21 that God has answered him. Similarly, in verse 24, we read (KJV):

For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

Therefore, considering Psalm 22:1 in light of Isaiah 49:14-15 and the rest of the Psalm, should we understand the verse to mean that the speaker feels forsaken but, in reality, is not?

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    I agree with the Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament. However, this did not prevent Jesus using this Psalm as His expression on the Cross.
    – Dottard
    Jul 22, 2022 at 21:44
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    There's no diff between literally and poetically. Whoever use the phrase asking God where are you and why have you hid your face or forsaken me is saying because it's true and he feels forsaken. Closed vote for opinion based.
    – Michael16
    Jul 25, 2022 at 4:05
  • 1
    Why is poetically mutually exclusive to literally? Can’t you be poetically literal? Of course you can. Seems like an excuse based question Aug 19, 2023 at 1:02

6 Answers 6

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There are a few things that we should look at here: Genre, Book, Psalm, Sentence Features, and the context of all God's story. I think you've gotten most of that, but I'll try laying it out. For this discussion, I won't reference the NT usage of the text to avoid any sort of circular reasoning.

Genre

It is poetry - as you've tagged. In poetry, we do not expect the same sort of literalness as in other genres. We can expect figurative language and exaggerations in poetry. In Song of Songs we read in chapter 6, verse four that his beloved is like an army with banners. In the verse before, we learn that the two beloveds belong to one another - this wouldn't be true by the literal legal mores of the time - that characters are saying how it feels. It is poetry and that's allowed in poetry, and today is sort of the point of poetry.

Book

The Book is the Psalms - a book of psalms, that is a certain sort of poetry. It has been called "Jesus' prayerbook". We can be confident in our identifying Psalm 22 as poetry and thus causing us to expect figurative language. But what is the book about? Bible Project accurately describes it as a book about lament and praise, but one that never forgets God's faithfulness.

The book of Psalms is supposed to be an encouragement to hope and faithfulness is response to God's faithfulness. For there to be literal forsakenness would conflict with the point of the book.

Psalm

This is Psalm 22. How often is figurative language used here? And what is the point of this Psalm? In verse six, we read "But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by everyone, despised by the people.", scorned by everyone is figurative language since most of the world did not know the Psalmist existed, and "But I am a worm and not a man," is certainly figurative language. So we can say with confidence, that in this psalm the psalmist uses figurative language to portray the misery.

(Mike Winger actually has an interesting discussion of this worm.)

The first two thirds of the Psalm is filled with imagery asthe Psalmist talks about his sufferings. But then starting with verse 22 the figurative language stops, and the praises of God begins. This looks like a deliberate technique from the author to go from figurative sufferings - including that attention-grabbing first line - to vivid and literal descriptions of the glorious future. And that contrast is the point of the Psalm.

Sentence

The word forsake is a word often used with God in the Old Testament, but almost always (there is one exception) about how God does not forsake his people (with is more than can be said for his people with God). So not only is the sentiment jarring, but the precise word jars too, however the feeling does not jar.

The exception is Deuteronomy 31:17, but that has a clear condition of forsakenness - to go after other Gods. This is something that the Psalmist gives no hint of doing.

The psalm is also written in the first person. What this sentence is doing is grabbing our attention, and connecting to us on the subjective experience level. However, by using feelings that we know cannot be so it leads us away from those feelings and to the wonders of God. Which is the point of the Psalm.

God's Big Story

So, we know that as a Psalm that it can be figurative language. And we know that Psalm 22 does use figurative language for sufferings in contrast to the literal glory. But are we certain that this first verse is not a literal starter that pre-introduces the animalistic imagery later? Well other thoughts in this first verse like "so far from my cries of anguish?" seem to dispute God's attributes, such as his omnipresence.

Also, these are questions. He does not make figurative blasphemous statements. He is asking the questions that people ask, and he is answering them with God's faithfulness.

And that is the point of the verse, the psalm, the book and the Bible. He is forsaken figuratively for "For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your ancestors, which he confirmed to them by oath.".

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  • +1 I agree, but only poetically. ;-)
    – Dieter
    Apr 15 at 1:33
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In a word, no! The reason David was because he was being hunted down by King Saul and he was describing his own feelings of forsakenness.

At vs11-13, "Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help. vs12, Many bulls have surrounded me; strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. Vs13, They open wide their mouth at me, as a raving and roaring lion."

When you read on the following is what David says at verses 23 and 24. "You who fear the Lord, praise Him; All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.

Vs24, For He has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Neither has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard." I'm sure everyone of us at times felt we were forsaken due to circumstances that seemed hopeless. I know I did when I was in Vietnam in 1968 during the Tet offensive, and here I am alive and well thanks to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

And speaking of Jesus Christ? He was not forsaken on that cross either even though He knew that He would be forsaken by His closest friends. John 16:32, "Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. Also, the Father was in/with Him on that cross reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:19.

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  • I see nothing in the text indicates that David was being hunted down by Saul. Are you think of Psalm 57 which is introduced as " A Miktam of David, when he fled from Saul, in the cave" ? Aug 12, 2022 at 1:02
  • @DanFefferman You might find the following site useful as it goes through each verse of Psalm 22 as well as other references of what David was going through. studylight.org/commentaries/eng/kdo/psalms-22.html Welcome to Stack Exchange.
    – Mr. Bond
    Aug 12, 2022 at 14:25
  • Thanks, I did find that interesting. It mentions several other possibilities as well: that was composed in part by Jeremiah, or by a writer during the exile, or during the Maccabean revolt... also that it's simply not possible to know at this time. I think the last is the most honest answer. Sep 17, 2022 at 3:24
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I take offense to this phrase in one answer:

And speaking of Jesus Christ? He was not forsaken on that cross either

While David was in a very difficult situation and his prayers were not answered for a time. But eventually, they were and he lived on.

But Christ on the cross was literally forsaken from God and men and died. God did not answer Him at all. And with good reason! He was drinking the cup of Gods wrath in my stead for my sins.

(Mark 14:36)

And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

(Mark 10:45)

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

(Isaiah 53:3-5)

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

(Isaiah 53:10)

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

In fact when under strong convictions i agreed that i deserved to be forsaken forever and be cast in outer darkness and that this should be my punishment. That same moment Christ by His word and Spirit revealed Himself to me as my Lord and Savior by speaking these words in my heart and mind: "my God my God why hast thou forsaken me" hanging in my place.

I can not express in words how thankful i am and should be that Christ was really forsaken on the cross to save wretches like me.

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Literally or Poetically? The Book of Psalms, as it is now composed, is a compiled Psalter (hymn book) which contains references to actual events experienced by heroes and nations in Israeli history. And it often uses poetic flights of imagination to express either sorrow or jubilation, depending upon the contemporary circumstances.

But the individual psalms are not limited to just rehearsing the past, or exulting in the present---a worship toward God---but a psalm is often a reference to a future event by means of prophetic typology.

This is why some psalms are called Messianic psalms by the ancient rabbis, as well as by modern Christians. For example, the first verse of Psalm 21 reads, The King shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice! But the Chaldee Targum made the opening of this psalm to read, O Lord, the King Messiah shall rejoice in thy strength! Rashi, a Jewish commentator, admits that the older Hebrew doctors expounded this psalm as referring to Messiah, whereas, taken literally it may just be referring to David (Nave's Study Bible, 1977, p. 824)

Other psalms considered Messianic Psalms are 2, 45, 67, 69, 72, 87, 89, 110, and 132. In these, the suffering of the psalmist foreshadows typologically the passion of a future person. The royal kingship described, typlifies the reign of the an expected Messiah. Inspired flights of magnification go beyond a usual manner of description; i.e. Also I will make Him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the Earth. (89:27)

Messianic psalms such as this one arose, by divine inspiration, above the themes of the occasion their writing, to the sublime theme of which the occasion was a type, and the poet set in musical measures the more glorious truths of the Messiah's Kingdom of which there shall be no end. (Nave's Study Bible, p. 873)

The New Testament Apostles, followed the practice of the rabbi scholars, and lifted phrases from these psalms, but to describe specifically the ministry of Jesus---not only His death and resurrection, but His divinity! (John 15:25, John 2:17, Romans 15:3; 11:9, John 19:25. The similitudes in the persecutions suffered by the old psalmist foreshadowed the sufferings of the Savior. Jesus certified the application of Psalm 110 to Himself: The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit thou at my right hand until I make thy enemies thy footstool". (Matthew 22:41-45, Mark 12:35-37, Luke 20:41-44)

So is the Speaker in Psalm 22:1 forsaken "Literally or Poetically"? The opening sentence of the commentary of the Cambridge University Commentary for Schools and Colleges began: The first and greatest of the 'Passion Psalms' consecrated for us by our Lord's appropriation of it to Himself. Nave's Study Bible added:

The opening words of the Psalm are used by Jesus on the cross and it is thought, with much probability that this Psalm was the subject of meditation in His dying agony. It, no doubt, has an historical basis in a suffering saint, the poetic delineation of whom, under divine inspiration and guidance, was made to describe, in type the sufferings of our Lord. The descriptions of the persecution...describe with surprising accuracy the sufferings of our Lord. (Ibid, p. 825, italics mine)

So was Jesus actually forsaken on the cross? The theology of the Apostles written in the N.T. would say so. Jesus became sin who knew no sin... Jesus was the carrier of all the evil that the world had ever committed...and the sufferer of all the wrath which that deserved. (Isaiah 53) And in that state, God had to look away! God cannot look on sin. His holiness forbids it.

Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows, yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted...(Isaiah 53:4)

Sinners deserve the punishment of total separation from God (hell). So if Jesus wasn't totally rejected (forsaken), then the "sin debt" of man isn't totally paid! Only part of it.

The wages of sin is death. (Romans 6:23) And we all, sinners, were crucified with Him, so that the body of sin might be destroyed. Despised, forsaken, crucified, under the wrath of God, as Jesus was. Our "old man" wasn't put into a coma, to be resuscitated. It was totally put to death!

And the death-curdling scream of Jesus, using the words of the suffering psalmist, My God, my God, Why have you forsaken Me? was not just poetic oration. The sun refused to shine on this horrible abandonment; the earth shuddered at what it was experiencing. Fortunately "God's forsaking" did not last so long that the whole foundation of the world would fall apart! But a "Just Universe" demanded such punishment.

Resurrection Power Someone has said, "God is not a mortician, He is a farmer (John 15:1), and what He sows, He expects to raise up!" So the rest of this Psalm 22 was fulfilled. Perhaps, by screaming out the first of this Psalm, Jesus was directing the attention of the disciples to the whole psalm, which remined (and consoled) the people that:

You who fear the LORD, praise Him; all you seed of Jacob, glorify Him, and fear Him, all you seed of Israel.
For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither has he hid his face from him, but when he cried unto Him, He heard! (22:23-24) He heard...He heard!

Forsaken, but revived! Despised, but restored! Crucified, but arisen! Punished but forgiven. And I'm not now talking about Jesus. (read Romans 6:4)

Addendum When foretelling of His pending Crucifixion and Resurrection, Jesus often referred to the story of Jonah (Matthew 12:39, 16:4, Luke 11:29). So a reading of that would be enlightening, especially as it pertains to descent into hell, and the prayer that was given:

I cried by reason of my affliction unto the LORD, and he hard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and Thou heard my voice.
...Then said I, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
...I went down to the bottom of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever; yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD, my God.
When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD; and my prayer came in unto Thee, into Thy holy temple (Jonah 2)

Jesus's agony, overwhelming (substitutionary) punishment, descent into hell...and then resurrection from death, was typlified in the experience of Jonah. That story must have weighed heavily on Jesus's mind every time He referred to it. There was to be no resurrection without descending into Hell: separation from God.

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  • +1 Nicely articulated and supported with scripture!
    – Dieter
    Apr 26 at 20:12
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Psalms 22 is literal but written poetical as is most of Psalms in general. These are prophecies. But the literal meaning has been misconstrued / manipulated when it comes to those wanting to show everything relate to Jesus and misconstrued the prophecies on a bias interpretation that Jesus was forsaken and died.

Psalms 22 is asking / praying / pleading to God for help. Exposing the limitations / weakness of man and the need of protection of the only one that can protect, the one and only God.

P 22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

P22: 12 & 13 [evil man throughout Psalms expressed by common animal motif]
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

P22:16 – unfortunately, has been deliberately misrepresented / translated. As above and passages after the ‘baddies’ are described poetically as bulls, lions etc… *** Ka-a-ri*** means like a lion, NOT ‘pierce’ – for more details ‘Kaari’ please see - https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/77814/33268

P22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. P22: 24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

Matt 26:39 - 39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

[asking to be saved which is not what someone would do if he came down to be sacrificed for everyone’s sins]

Luke 22:42-44 - 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

Mark 14:35 - 35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

Hebrews 5:7 - “Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear."

John 11:41-42 - Father, I thank thee that thou heardest me. And I knew that thou hearest me always."

Conclusion: This is a prophecy which is most likely to be about Jesus asking to be saved / protection – he was heard and saved. NOT FORSAKEN.

For more details see link below. Was Jesus forsaken - https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/62632/33268

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Psalm 22 is both poetic and prophetic, an echo from the future into the time of David under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit!

The following details are included:

• Despised and sneered at, “Let God rescue him because he delights in him.”

• Bones are out of joint, heart melted like wax, strength dried up, tongue stuck to jaw

• Laid in the dust of death

• Surrounded by evil doers

• Pierced hands and feet (in Christian translations)

• Counted his bones, stared at him

• Divided his garments between them, cast lots for them

Does this sound like a crucifixion?

Because it’s poetry and we have no record of David literally suffering bones out of joint or having his garments the objects of gambling, a reasonable conclusion is that this psalm is from a vision of the future Son of David, Son of Man, Messiah ben Joseph, and King of Israel.

Important Note: Chapter and verse numbers weren't available in the first century CE. According to Bible Gateway, "The person credited with dividing the Bible into chapters is Stephen Langton, the Archbishop of Canterbury from 1207-1228. While Langton’s isn’t the only organizational scheme that was devised, it is his chapter breakdown that has survived."

What Torah teachers and others did at the time of Yeshua/Jesus/Joshua was to quote the first phrase in a Psalm to identify it. This is what Jesus did as he hung on the cross. Also note that Jesus remained completely silent at his trial and scourging as Isaiah 53:7 indicates.

Controversy

Yes, but there’s a firestorm of controversy about the word “pierced.” The Septuagint translation, as quoted from the Apostolic Bible Polyglot, reads as follows:

16 For many dogs encircled me; gathering of the ones wicked compass me. They dug into my hands and my feet.

The Jewish scholars who translated the Septuagint in Alexandria a few hundred years BCE chose the Greek word, oruxan (ορυξαν). In other contexts, this word is used for digging a well or through a wall. In contrast, here’s the literal reading from the Hebrew text used in creating the translations for modern Jewish Bibles:

17 For dogs have encircled me, an evil congregation surrounded me like a lion my hands and my feet.

The reading "like a lion" doesn’t fit the grammar and makes no sense, so words were inserted to make the phrase into, “like a lion they are at my hands and my feet,” which fixes the grammar, but leaves one wondering about the strange behavior of these lions.

The controversy between “like a lion” and “pierced” depends on a single Hebrew character that determines whether the word in question is k’ari or k’aru. Reading from right to left . . .

enter image description here

In k’ari, the last letter is a yod. The word means “like a lion,” and is used in the Masoretic text, the source for the translations of the Jewish Bible.

In k’aru, the last letter is a vav. The word means “dug,” “dug through,” or “dug into” depending on context.

Reading from right to left in the enhanced Dead Sea Scroll fragment below, we can clearly see in the second-to-the-last word, the four characters kaf, aleph, resh, and . . . (drumroll) vav. So the correct word is k’aru, dug, which is a graphic depiction of the brutal process of gouging and pounding nails between the bones of a person’s wrists and ankles. The orange line points to the first character of the word that follows k'aru.

enter image description here

Nevertheless, it has been argued that the yod is elongated in some texts, which can make it ambiguous. However, as you can plainly see above, the very next word to the left, “my hands,” begins with a yod—the orange line points to it. Thus, the lengths of the two characters can be compared side-by-side.

This fragment, 5/6Hev – Col. XI, frag. 9, has been dated between 50-68 CE, and was translated by Dr. Peter W. Flint, who is considered a leading authority on Herodian Hebrew. The presence of the aleph in k’aru is a spelling variation, and there are controversies regarding the grammar. However, the fact that vav and yod are successive characters in the text destroys any argument that the writer wanted them both to be a yod.

Bible scholar and published author, Craig Davis, points out that a second Dead Sea Scroll fragment of this Psalm (4Q88 Psf ) dated 100 – 25 BCE, also attests to k’aru. While the last letter, a vav or yod, is missing from this manuscript, the absence of an aleph in the word eliminates the possibility of the word being k’ari.

According to the scholars who actually handled this fragment, this discovery reinforces the Septuagint, Syriac Peshitta, and Vulgate readings. They also assert that the text could not have been changed by Christians, who at that time were busy being arrested, imprisoned, and executed for their faith in Jesus as the promised Messiah.

Hebrew Poetic Structure Provides More Evidence

Psalm 22 provides compelling internal evidence as well. The psalm is organized into a chiastic structure, a literary form with symmetric reversal that’s typical in David's poetry and Hebrew poetry in general. In this case, the chiastic structure follows this pattern of paired references:

A. v. 12 - Bulls

B. ...v. 13 - Lion

C. ......v. 16 - Dogs

D. .........v. 16 – Dug/Pierced (in Christian translations)

E. ............v. 17 - Nakedness

E' ............v. 18 - Garments

D' .........v. 20 - Sword

C'......v. 20 - Dogs

B' ...v. 21 - Lion

A' v. 21 - Wild oxen (Hebrew re'em or רֶאֵם)

Dug or pierced is obviously related to sword, but as you can see, the chiastic structure is disrupted if verse 16 is rendered "like a lion."

Evidence from Hostile Sources

Sadly, the religious leadership in Jerusalem rejected Yeshua and tried to suppress his resurrection, which came as a profound shock to them. However, for the next 40 years, they noticed strange signs at the Temple as recorded in both the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud.

The Talmud is a collection of Jewish historical traditions, civil and ceremonial law, and commentaries. There are two similar versions: the Jerusalem Talmud dating from around 375 CE and the Babylonian Talmud dating from around 500 CE.

We read the following in the Jerusalem Talmud:

"Forty years before the destruction of the Temple [in 70 CE], the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open." - Jacob Neusner, The Yerushalmi, p.156-157

A similar passage in the Babylonian Talmud states the following:

"Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ['For the Lord'] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves." - Soncino version, Yoma 39b

The “lot for the Lord” and the crimson-colored cord were associated with the yearly Jewish temple rituals for the atonement of sins. Both ritual elements behaved in a manner disturbing to the priests.

Imagine the miraculous and puzzling signs involving the bronze massive temple doors and the solid gold temple menorah, which was three cubits high. Historically, a priest was assigned to tend the seven lamps on the temple menorah, filling them with oil, preparing the wicks, and lighting them every day. The middle lamp was called the lamp of Elohim (God) and was always supposed to be lit continuously. Disturbingly, this middle lamp kept going out.

And then after 40 years, the Temple was destroyed as prophesied in Daniel 9:

And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. – Daniel 9:26 (ESV)

So, what exactly happened 40 years before the destruction of the Temple? Forty years before 70 CE is 30 CE, the year that most modern scholars believe to be the year of the crucifixion of Jesus.

Conclusion

Psalm 22 is prophetic poetry reflecting the literal agony of Yeshua HaMashiach during his brutal crucifixion under Roman authority as the Lamb Of God sacrificed for our sins.

But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. - Isaiah 53:5 ESV

And Pesach (Passover 2024) is a perfect day to post this!

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  • Very impressive looking attempt–you may have already read my objections to this hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/77814/33268 & Isaiah 53 very unlikely to relate to Jesus hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/82915/33268 & 53:5 the proper translation is ‘wounded’ not pierced. How would you deal with there being no such Hebrew/Aramaic word that would translate to ‘Karu’. Even if you accept all the above–where in any OT prophecy does it say that Jesus died? (not hurt but actually died) considering many passages say that he was saved hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/62632/33268 Apr 23 at 12:38
  • Thank you, @another theory. This forum is not focused on argumentation, but evidence, I presented evidence from the Greek Septuagint (translated by Jewish scholars under the auspices of the Sanhedrin), the Dead Sea Scrolls (including an image) and scholars who translated them, and even testimony from the Talmud. Regarding כָּר֣וּ , see Psalm 57:6 . . . are there lions here? I'll go ahead and read your posts, but I won't argue with you.
    – Dieter
    Apr 23 at 16:02
  • Okay, @another theory, I carefully read each of the links you provided above. Thank you. As a result, I added text highlighted, Important Note: above to my evidences. I've not been able to find recognition of the chiastic structure of Psalm 22 and how lions complement "sword" in this case. Incidentally, I had to do a significant amount of research to find convincing evidence that re'em (רֶאֵם) actually refers to the now-extinct aurochs (Bos primigenius) that once roamed the ANE now translated as "wild oxen" rather than the "unicorn" found in the LXX and many other translations.
    – Dieter
    Apr 23 at 18:18
  • Many thanks for your response and reading the links, not an argument just a discussion and we may or may not take from it. A few points if you don’t mind. כארו doesn’t mean anything in Hebrew. At best a misspelling it could mean ‘dig’, ‘dug’ as P57:6–not pierced. There is a general animal trait in Psalms and in the other passages it is translated as ‘lion’. Nahal Hever Cave is also a second century document, not to be mixed with DSS Qumran. Mark 14:50 Then everyone deserted Him and fled -not sure how they know what Jesus said on the cross. Thanks for your time all the best. Apr 24 at 9:35
  • @ Dieter - sorry one last point - even accepting all you say - not one OT mentions Jesus dying - wounded / pierced etc... is not death. So no OT prophecy confirms the crucifixion or resurrection Apr 24 at 9:53

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