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The scriptures in question read in the Young's Literal Translation:

John 1:3

all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

Colossians 1:16

because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

It seems like the verbs in these passages are constructed in such a way to connect the importance of Jesus to the creation of all things without actually using verbs that give Jesus himself active agency in the creation of all things: Jesus is one "through," "in," or "for" whom things are created, but not here specifically said to create. Thus someone else can be said to create through, in, or for Jesus.

On the other hand, the Bible seems to have no problem with giving God active agency in creation. For example:

  1. for those days shall be tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the creation that God created, till now, and may not be; - Mark 13:19
  2. and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, (ESV -YLT seems to use a different base Greek text here) - Ephesians 3:9
  3. Etc...

Bottom line

  1. Is it hermeneutically sound to declare Jesus the creator from these verses alone, since God is often given active agency in the creation and the verbs in John 1:2 and Colossians 1:16 do not give Jesus such active agency.
  2. What can we say is intended to be specifically communicated regarding his role in these two verses, if it is right to say that the scripture writers are intentionally constructing the verbs to connect Jesus to the creation without declaring him actively the creator?

My concern is that even if Jesus can be declared the creator from other passages we may overwrite the actual meaning of these passages by assigning them meaning from other passages.


Note: This question seeks to differentiate from Does John 1:3 identify Jesus Christ as the creator? and What is Jesus being credited with here? Col 1:16 by drawing specific attention to the active verbs generally associated with the creator and the lack of them in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 for understanding the meaning of these two passages.
I think this is a valid question regardless of whether you believe in the Trinity or not or believe that the creation or bringing into existence of things here relates to the old creation or the new creation or something else.
This question is about what can confidently be said about the role specifically attributed to Jesus in these very specific passages based on the verb construction.
This question does assume that we can correctly identify Jesus as the Logos in John 1:1 but not necessarily the word of God elsewhere discussed in scripture. I'd rather not argue that point.

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  • The word partakes in creation in the same manner as a tool in construction, an axe in cutting down trees, or a weapon in warfare.
    – Lucian
    Commented Sep 7, 2021 at 3:05
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    @Lucian, given that sense, if I create a report about Jesus through my computer. My computer isn't the creator of that report. I am. Even still, I'm not sure that is even the right meaning with which we're supposed to understand the word διʼ.
    – Austin
    Commented Sep 7, 2021 at 3:30
  • God creates, but when we dole different portions of that act of creating into persons of the trinity, then you start getting these types of assignments of responsiblity. Focusing on one member of the godhead at the exclusion of the others leads to a sense of partial fulfillment, that something is missing
    – Robert
    Commented Sep 8, 2021 at 1:14

8 Answers 8

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There are two separate questions here about the meaning of different verbs.

John 1:3c γίνομαι

The operative verb in John 1:3 is γίνομαι (ginomai), which according to BDAG means the following:

  1. to come into being through process of birth or natural production, be born, be produced, eg, John 8:58, Rom 1:3, Gal 4:4, 1 Cor 15:37, Matt 21:19.
  2. to come into existence, be made, be created, be manufactured, be performed, eg, John 1:3, Heb 11;3, Acts 19:26, Matt 11:20, 23, Luke 10:13, Acts 8:13, 4:22, 2:43, 30, 12:9, 24:2, 14:3, Mark 6:2, etc.
  3. come into being as an event or phenomenon from a point in origin, arise, come about, develop, eg, John 12;29, Rev 8:5, 11:19, Matt 8:26, Mark 4:39, Luke 8:24, etc.
  4. to occur as process or result, happen, turn out, take place, eg, Matt 1:22, 26;56, etc, etc, etc
  5. to experience a change in nature and so indicate entry into a new condition, become something, eg, Matt 5:45, Mark 1;17, Luke 6:16, 23:12, etc.

Thus, it is clear that "create" is entirely consistent with the meaning of γίνομαι (ginomai), especially in John 1:3.

Col 1:16, κτίζω

The verb κτίζω (ktizó) occurs twice in Col 1:16 and is used in the following senses in this verse:

  • in "Him" (The Son, Jesus) all things were created
  • via Him all things were created
  • for Him all things were created.

BDAG defines this word as, "to bring something into existence, create"

The real crux of this verse is the meaning of the preposition "en" (the second word in the verse of the Greek text). This is an extremely versatile word that has, according to BDAG, 12 meanings and uses plus several sub-meanings and uses. While this is too much to reproduce here, the relevant meaning is: 3. marker of close association within a limit, in, eg, Col 1:16, meaning "everything created in close association with him".

Note that this verse is actually saying that:

  • Jesus created all things in association with God
  • Jesus created all things through His [Jesus'] power
  • all things were created for the benefit of Jesus

Note that V17 adds a further dimension of saying that not only did Jesus create all things, that He also sustains/maintains things as well.

Thus, this verse is teaching that Jesus created all things in close association with the entire Godhead as Gen 1:1, 2 suggests.

Note the comments of Meyer:

ἐν αὐτῷ is not equivalent to διʼ αὐτοῦ (Chrysostom, Oecumenius, Theophylact, Erasmus, Beza, Bleek, and many others), but: on Christ depended (causally) the act of creation, so that the latter was not done independently of Him—in a causal connection apart from Him—but it had in Him the ground essentially conditioning it. In Him lay, in fact, the potency of life, from which God made the work of creation proceed, inasmuch as He was the personal principle of the divine self-revelation, and therewith the accomplisher of the divine idea of the world.

Ellicott is also helpful:

(16) For by him . . . all things were created by (through) him, and for (to) him.—Carrying out the idea of the preceding clause with accumulated emphasis, St. Paul speaks of all creation as having taken place “by Him,” “through Him,” and “for Him.” Now we note that in Romans 11:36, St. Paul, in a burst of adoration, declares of the Father that “from Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things;” and in Hebrews 2:10 the Father is spoken of as One “by whom are all things, and for whom are all things” (the word “for whom” being different from the word so rendered here, but virtually equivalent to it). Hence we observe that the Apostle here takes up a phrase belonging only to Godhead and usually applied to the Father, and distinctly applies it to Christ, but with the significant change of “from whom” into “in whom.” The usual language of holy Scripture as to the Father is “from whom,” and as to the Son “through whom,” are all things. Thus we have in Hebrews 1:2, “through whom He made the world;” and in John 1:3-10, “All things were made”—“the world was made”—“through Him.” Here, however, St. Paul twice adds “in whom,” just as he had used “in whom” of God in his sermon at Athens (Acts 17:28), probably conveying the idea, foreshadowed in the Old Testament description of the divine “Wisdom,” that in His divine mind lay the germ of the creative design and work. and indirectly condemning by anticipation the fancy of incipient Gnosticism, that He was but an inferior emanation or agent of the Supreme God.

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  • 1
    FWIW: All of these Trinitarian questions have got me thinking about the huge theological problem the non-trinitarian position creates. Being theological, it's not a fit answer for any of the questions. However, if Jesus is not God, then it wasn't God who was faithful. It was a fully separate surrogate, a demigod. Then, it seems to me, that several passages of argument and support simply fall apart. There's a lot to unpack here; but, my point is that God is directly and covenantally engaged in all things redemptive and salvific. That falls apart with a demigod. Commented Aug 24 at 21:03
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    @MikeSangrey - I fully agree. It also creates a theology of ditheism.
    – Dottard
    Commented Aug 24 at 21:20
  • @Dottard, ok. Let me put my comment in the form of a question. Did you really mean to apply the Greek word "en" to God instead of the firstborn in verse 16? If so what is the justification of God as the referent and not the firstborn from v15?
    – Austin
    Commented Aug 25 at 1:43
  • @Austin - I do not believe I did - "en" applies in V16 only to Jesus.
    – Dottard
    Commented Aug 25 at 3:53
  • Ok, if that's true how did you arrive at the following conclusion? "the relevant meaning is: 3. marker of close association within a limit, in, eg, Col 1:16, meaning "everything created in close association with him". Note that this verse is actually saying that: Jesus created all things in association with God" Your conclusion her seens to contradict what you just said. Shouldn't that instead say all things were created in a close association with Jesus?
    – Austin
    Commented Aug 25 at 4:11
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John 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

Colossians 1:16 because in him were created all things in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and unto him.

This Colossians passage comes up a lot and mostly it is misread or misunderstood. That's probably why it comes up a lot!

It is a simple error - not reading carefully the words we are provided.

  • IN him. Not BY him. This means that creation DID NOT happen BY Jesus.
  • Things IN heaven and ON earth. Even if one forces Jesus as Creator, a Genesis creation of all things is not in view here. God didn't create just the things IN heaven and ON earth - He made the lot!

Anyone can read when Jesus was born. Approx. 4 BC is the first mention of this holy son of God. If we somehow decide Jesus created everything, then we have to make up a lot of stuff not inspired of God.

Why do we need to go beyond the passages to invent another truth, another gospel, another God???

Paul's context of Colossians is of the church and the new creation- the life of the spirit - of which Jesus is the first. The first human to be transformed into immortal life from a mortal physical life.

that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Rom 8:29

This confirms what firstborn means - not OF all creation before Genesis, but of all in the new creation. (Does God have brothers?)

  • the hope being laid up for you in the heavens v5
  • having qualified you for the share of the inheritance of the saints v12
  • transferred us into the kingdom of His beloved son v13
  • in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins v14
  • And he is the head of the body, the church v18

John 1:3 is also misread a lot. Some seem to think it's ok to read the start of John with Jesus in mind. The subject is clearly the logos and not Jesus - not until it becomes flesh v14.

To read, "all things through Jesus did happen, and without Jesus happened not even one thing that hath happened", is to treat the text with contempt and think we know better than John, and God! The reality of this logos is echoed in 1John 1 also.

From that brief outline we can safely and confidently answer the Q.

Is using John 1:3 and Col 1:16 to declare Jesus the creator going a bit beyond what these passages actually say?

No! It is not going a bit beyond. It is going A LOT BEYOND!

To make up such an interpretation is pure eisegesis. There is no other word for it, it's not even poor interpretation, it's making up things with no connection to the text.

If Jesus IS the Creator as many insist by twisting and misreading scripture, why is Jesus made HEIR? Heb 1. Why is Jesus exalted to the side of God if he is already God? This forces the fabrication of a two-natured Jesus - also not of scripture.

This is a reality check on the nonsensical claims of making Jesus more than the man scripture says he was and still is. John 8:40 by his own words he confirms this truth. Choosing to believe otherwise, we make him a liar. A man cannot be a man and God also - then he is simply NOT a man but a God/man. This the bible never speaks of.

Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect Heb 2:17

Made as a God/man and supreme Creator is not remotely like us.

What does the 'in him were created all things' refer to here? This text does not indicate Jesus is Creator, so what does it indicate?

in him were created all things in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and unto him.

No things of this world will realise their God given destiny without Christ Jesus' perfect sacrifice. The only way to the Father is through Jesus. So while God created through His logos everything that is (John 1), He is continuing this process to another level - all through and in Jesus.

...this man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death. Acts 2:23

we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood 1Cor 2:7

We have the old age of 'law of sin and death' and the new age of 'spirit and life' that Jesus' death (and new life) has made possible.

the Law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the Law of sin and death. Rom 8:2

Jesus is the firstborn (v15) of the new spirit life - all others may follow

  • first the saints (Rev 20) and then the rest. In Christ, God is continuing His creative work in this new age through the centrepiece of the church. First it was Israel, the earthly kingdom and the laws (death), then the Church, grace and Jesus, a heavenly Kingdom (life).

  • Jesus is the head and cornerstone of this new structure. v18

All created humanity comes to fulfilment, realising their purpose fully and finally in Christ. Without him, the "the visible and the invisible ...thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities" have no real purpose to bring about true life. They only function under Christ now to bring about the end of this age and all will know God and true life through Jesus and his headship. This true life, Jesus now lives, (Rom 6:9, 1 Pet 3:18) was always God's intended destiny for all people.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. 1Cor 8:6

He who descended is himself, also he who ascended far above all the heavens, so that he might fill all things. 11And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ Eph 4:10-

Paul often reveals this future age and life that is only possible in and through Jesus. God sending him to accomplish a very special task that no one else could do. When God made Adam and Eve, He was just beginning a process of making man in His image. This process is completed in Christ Rom 8:29

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the ages. Heb 1:1

  • some bibles insert world or even universe for ages, αἰῶνας (aiōnas), but this is not correct. αἰῶνας also means forever.
  • 'made' ἐποίησεν (epoiēsen) is better rendered 'has done'

So we can understand this as, 'through (because of) Jesus, God has done (brought about) forever'!

No wonder Jesus, on the cross, gasped with his last breath, "It is finished!". The work God gave him to do was done, evil was defeated, the age of 'spirit and life' could now accelerate toward the final stages.

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  • Can you edit this to explain what you think it means for all things to be created "in him"? You've said what you think it does not mean, but you haven't given any explanation of what it does mean.
    – curiousdannii
    Commented Sep 9, 2021 at 11:46
  • It's more that no argument about what a text doesn't mean will be convincing unless its proponents put forward an alternative interpretation.
    – curiousdannii
    Commented Sep 9, 2021 at 12:18
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    To be clear, Jesus being or not being the Creator is not dependent on whether or not he preexisted. If he did not preexist, then it's safe to say he was not the Creator, because, obviously, he could not have been. We're safe there. But it's entirely possible for Jesus to have preexisted, and yet STILL not have been the Creator. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
    – moron
    Commented Sep 11, 2021 at 20:27
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    @Cory whatever gives you this understanding about Jesus' pre-existence is not of the bible, not from its plainly presented and consistent revelation. You got your story from somewhere else.
    – Steve
    Commented Sep 12, 2021 at 11:19
  • @Steve The Colossians 1:16 says not only “in” but “through Him”. Also, if Cassius Clay defeats Doug Jones and later Cassius Clay turns Muslim and is called Mohammad Ali, cannot you safely say that Mohammad Ali defeated Doug Jones? Similarly, since the person of Logos and the person of Jesus Christ is one and the same person, you can safely say that Jesus Christ created the universe. Commented Aug 25 at 3:49
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Is it hermeneutically sound to declare Jesus the creator from these verses alone, since God is often given active agency in the creation and the verbs in John 1:2 and Colossians 1:16 do not give Jesus such active agency?”

Sorry, but this question assumes something that is analytically untenable from the outset!

To give a lucid analogy: if you, dear Mr @Austin happen to read a book about sun ☀️ in which you will very often read that the sun enlightens and provides life to all plants; and you also read not infrequently in the same book (say some Gupta Ramashmurti’s “Influence of the sun on everyday life of snails and mosquitoes”, Routledge, ISBN this and that) that the sun does so through/by/with its rays; will you legitimately ask a question like: “is it hermeneutically sound to declare rays of the sun as the enlighteners, since the sun is often given active agency in enlightening?”, or would you not rather consider such a question as utterly groundless, since it is analytically clear that the sun can enlighten but through its rays, just as God can create but by His word (Psalm 33:6), which word John hypostatizes as the onlybegotten Son, calling Him also God (John 1:1-3), ha?!

Father not only does not do anything without His Logos, but ontologically is totally unable to do anything without Him, just as the Son is totally unable to do anything without the Father (John 5:30).

Therefore, using Jn 1:3 and Col 1:16 to declare Jesus the creator is not a tiny bit going beyond what these passages actually say, for they actually say just that.

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John 1:3 says the Word of God made all things - that, without him - nothing that was made was made. That is according to another literal translation, the A.V.

Colossians 1:16 says that it is the Son of God by whom all things were created, and also 'for him', according to that other literal translation, the K.J.V.

I deliberately say A.V. for one text, and the K.J.V. for the other text, because those translation abbreviations reference one and the same Bible. Likewise, when those two texts state the Word of God in one, and the Son of God in the other, they mean the same One. And, as the question is clear that this One is understood to have become the man, Jesus Christ, so the question and answers respond accordingly.

However, it would be wrong for anyone to say that "the man, Jesus Christ, is the Creator." That would be going beyond what both texts actually state. No need to examine Greek verbs. The person - the man - who began to exist as a human in the womb of the virgin Mary, did not start to exist until many centuries after all things were created, "in the beginning". The man, Jesus Christ, had a starting point in time - but the eternal Word of God aka the eternal Son of God were "in the beginning with God", before time began. John's gospel adds that, in time, the Word became flesh, so adding human nature to his divine nature in order to start that foreordained ministry of the Messiah, as being fully human and fully deity.

Active agency in the creation is credited to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit throughout the Bible - understood to mean "God".

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Jesus gave an example which illustrates the condition described and the contrast implied.

John 15:1

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.

One could argue the vine is subordinate to the vinedresser. On the other hand, if there is no vine, the vinedresser does not exist as such. If there is a vineyard, it identifies both the vine and the vinedresser. The vinedresser needs the vine; the vine needs the vinedresser. They have a mutual relationship. As Jesus said, I and the Father are one.

When Jesus said, I am the True Vine, the vineyard with the True Vine identifies His Father. As Jesus said, If you have seen Me, the True Vine, you have seen the Father, My Vinedresser.

In New Testament language, God may be called the Father, only because the Son of God identifies Him as such. If one reads the Old Testament understanding "God" yet not as Father and Son as in the New Testament, one sees a vineyard without the True Vine. On the other hand, if one reads the Old Testament with New Testament revelation, one sees a vineyard of the True Vine and the True Vine's Vinedresser.

The error in the OP's analysis is the premise one can explain the vineyard, creation, by the vinedresser, the Father, without the True Vine.

Mark 13:19

for those days shall be tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the creation that God created, till now, and may not be

The OP concludes, "even if Jesus can be declared the creator from other passages we may overwrite the actual meaning of these passages by assigning them meaning from other passages."

The passages which we may overwrite are only those which omit the Son.

for those days shall be tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the creation that one God, the Father, from whom are all things and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things for by him all things were created, till now, and may not be

Creation in the New Testament includes the Son. In the same way the vineyard identifies both the True Vine and the True Vine's Vinedresser, creation identifies both the Son and the Son's Father.

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  • The problem with your analogy is that the vineyard represents creation and the vine is part of the vineyard, that is creation. The vine is a creation. The vinedresser himself is not a part of the vineyard and thus not a part of creation. The vinedresser causes the vine to exist when previously there was a seed and no vine. The vine is definitionally required for the existence of the vineyard but saying it causes the vineyard to exist is like saying my soul/spirit caused me to exist. The essence of the existence of the vineyard is however in the existence of the vine.
    – Austin
    Commented Aug 24 at 19:12
  • @Austin When you say the vinedresser is not part of the vineyard, you disregard what Jesus says. The vineyard identifies both vine and vinedresser. Therefore, as used by Jesus, the Vinedresser is part of the vineyard. This is the same mistake you make in how you interpret Mark 13:19. The text says "God." You believe you can replace God with Father, as if the Son was not involved in creation. Commented Aug 24 at 19:36
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    The creation identifies the creator. The creator is not a part of creation.
    – Austin
    Commented Aug 24 at 19:48
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Is using Jn.1:3and Col.1:16 to declare Jesus the creator going a bit beyond what the passages actually say?

Yes. that is going beyond what they actually say.

By the word of Jehovah The heavens have been made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host Psalm 33:6. The LXX actually renders this verse "By the logos of the LORD the heavens were made" Throughout the bible, it was God's own expression or command that facilitated creation,

By faith we understand that the worlds have been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen hath not been made out of things which appear Hebrews 11:3,

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light, Genesis 1:3,

Let them praise the name of Jehovah; For he commanded, and they were created. Psalm 148:5,

For he spake, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast. Psalm 33:9 ASV

God's word is something that belonged to God and is not a 2nd God.

Jesus attributed creation to God, not himself, Matthew 19:4-6; Mark 10:6 and Mark 13:19. Even the words that Jesus spoke do not belong to him. According to Jesus his words belong to the father who sent him. John 14:24 and the one that is sent is not greater than the one that sent him, John 13:16. The Father is greater than all, Jesus included. According to Jesus, the creator is God, the Father whom he worshipped, prayed to and calls the only true God. John 17:3.

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    Your calling "the word" of John 1:1 "God's word." It does not say that, there is no possessive/genitive. It does not say anything about words belonging to God. It says "In the beginning The word was already existing." The Word has self existence here. Then it says, "And the Word was with God." (article shown for clarity). So The word is shown to exist in relation to The God contrary to you trying to make this "God's words." "And The word was God." The nature of The Word is God, whatever The God is The word is also. The word is self existent confirmed by John 1:3, Colossians 1:16.
    – Mr. Bond
    Commented Sep 7, 2021 at 23:25
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    @Mr.Bond just as you suggest others read into the text. Your, "Word has self existence here" is also read in. There is nothing about 'existing' anywhere - the word just is. What it is, is not expressed here, as well as it is in 1John1. But you know all that and refuse to accept it.
    – Steve
    Commented Sep 8, 2021 at 8:14
  • @steveowen 1John1:1, "Who" was from the beginning that the disciples saw and handled? Not the spoken words of life. John 1:4, In HIM was life, and the life was the light of men. If the Son never eternally existed His incarnation then why is He identified or presented as the Agent of creation at John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14? I ask because Isaiah 44:24 says, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." Reconcile this and if you use the excuse of "by" and "through" Him watch what happens.
    – Mr. Bond
    Commented Sep 8, 2021 at 13:41
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    The LORD in Isaiah 44:24 is Jehovah, not Jesus. Commented Sep 8, 2021 at 13:45
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    Yes, there are in fact two redeemers, Jesus being our secondary redeemer, and God being our ultimate redeemer. You could call Jesus our "redeeming intermediary" or "intermediary redeemer", between us and the Father. But God is primary, ultimate redeemer. Jesus, however, is not an "intermediary Creator". God the Father is the only Creator. Jesus did preexist, however. My story and sticking to it.
    – moron
    Commented Sep 11, 2021 at 20:57
1

You already hinted at the answer from the prolegomena in John 1.

In the beginning was ἦν the Word, and the Word was ἦν with God, and the Word was ἦν God. 2 He was ἦν in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made ἐγένετο through him, and without him was not any thing made ἐγένετο that was made ἐγένετο. 4 In him was ἦν life, and the life was ἦν the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 6 There was Ἐγένετο a man sent from God, whose name was [not in Greek] John. (John 1:1–6, ESV with Greek added)

Translations in v3 translate ἐγένετο as made or created, but the literal meaning is became. By contrasting ἦν with ἐγένετο, John said God and the Logos are eternal with no beginning as opposed to the created things which began/became.

Here's a translation of the context of Col. 1:16 from What does it mean that "it pleased the Father" for "all the fullness" to dwell in Jesus (Colossians 1:19, NKJV)?.

15 who is the image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation, 16 because everything was created by him in the heavens and the earth [Gen. 1:1], the things seen and the things invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities. Everything was created through him and for him. 17 and he is before everything and everything stands together by him, 18 and he is the head of the body of the church who is [the] beginning/ruler [same phrase as Gen. 1:1 LXX and John 1:1], the firstborn of the dead, in order that he should be the first in everything. 19 because/that he [God, the Father] deemed worthy that by him [Christ] all fulfillment resides 20 and that everything is reconciled to him [God, the Father] through him [Christ], making peace through his blood of the cross, whether things on the earth or things in heaven.

Notice that "firstborn of the dead" is nonsense if taken as literal physical birth related to the dead. First means preeminence to a Hebrew. That's the idea of firstborn in v15. Unless you dispute that the Col. 1:16 passage refers to Christ, along with the the Logos being Christ from 1:14, Jesus created all creation. However, notice Gen. 1:1.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God [וְר֣וּחַ אֱלֹהִ֔ים] was hovering over the face of the waters. (Gen. 1:1–2, ESV)

Thus, God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were all present and involved during the creation. The description of the Trinity has always been complex and beyond understanding, but the different types of agency show the full involvement of the Trinity. Christ is not described as the ultimate agent, which apparently is reserved for the Father.

a. With Agency Expressed (431–35)

  1. Ultimate Agent: usually ὑπό (+ gen.), sometimes ἀπό (+ gen.) or παρά (+ gen.), indicating the person who is ultimately responsible for the action (433)
  1. Intermediate Agent: διά (+ gen.), indicating the person who carries out the act for the ultimate agent (433–34)
  1. Impersonal Means: ἐν (+ dat.), simple dative, or sometimes ἐκ (+ gen.), indicating the means an agent uses to perform an act (434–35) -- Wallace, D. B. (1996). Greek Grammar beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (p. 747). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

See God has a beginning. Does he?

What does all this agency mean? Look at Matt 1:22.

All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:... (ESV)

τοῦτο δὲ ὅλον γέγονεν ἵνα πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν ὑπὸ ⸆ κυρίου διὰ ⸇ τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· (NA28)

The Lord is the ultimate agent, the one who decided and authorized the action.

The prophet is the intermediary agent, the one who carried out the action under the authority of the ultimate agent.

Thus, with creation, God the Father is the ultimate agent, who authorized creation. The Son is the intermediary agent who carried out creation. As the instrumental/impersonal agent Jesus used himself, not instruments, tools, hardware, or pre-existing matter to create creation; like saying he used his bare hands.

Note how this is consistent with John 8:28:

So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. (ESV)

7
  • 1
    If Jesus created all creation - why is God making him heir of it all? Reading "Jesus" in John 1:1 is just the start of a very slippery slope.
    – Steve
    Commented Sep 7, 2021 at 1:23
  • The complexity of the Trinity
    – Perry Webb
    Commented Sep 7, 2021 at 1:27
  • I'll work on this more when I have time, but am staying within the context of these two passages. The context is important.
    – Perry Webb
    Commented Sep 7, 2021 at 12:10
  • @Austin Does it now answer your question?
    – Perry Webb
    Commented Sep 8, 2021 at 0:18
  • 3
    Maybe the Trinity is just too complex to be accepted as Truth. If the Trinity is to be accepted as Truth, and if it's just too darn complex for even the greatest minds to comprehend, then where does that leave us retards?
    – moron
    Commented Sep 11, 2021 at 20:46
1

Answer

Truth 1:- The fact is, it is God the Father who went way beyond (not, simply “a bit”) these passages when He declared Jesus the Creator:

“He (God the Father) said…..but as to the Son, ‘Your throne O God,….’and ‘…You, Lord (Yahweh), at the beginning founded the earth, and the heavens are works of Your hands’” (Heb 1:7,8,10).

[It is true, as Alex Balilo said, “Jesus attributed creation to God”. But then, God the Father attributed creation to Jesus, as is clearly evidenced in the above verses]

Truth 2:- Actually, the Scripture gives “active agency in creation” to Jesus Himself and not to God the Father!

And this is directly in contrast to the OP’s “Bottom line 1”!

Explanation

When the Scripture says that God created everything “through”, “in” or “for” Jesus, it doesn’t mean that God used Jesus as a passive tool to create something.

We are not to understand it as when a scientist looked at some microbes “in” an electron microscope or as when someone looked at a distant object “through” a binocular. This is not the concept that the Scripture projects.

In fact, God created everything “through” or “in” Jesus means Jesus “actively created” everything “on behalf of“ God the Father. This is what Scripture says.

An illustration:-

“the Pharisees heard that Jesus made more disciples and baptized more than John (though truly Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples)” (John 4:1-2).

Here, the “active agency” in baptizing belongs to “His disciples” and not to Jesus!

Jesus baptized “through” His disciples. It doesn’t mean that Jesus “used” them as a “tool” to baptize.

It simply means “His disciples” baptized “on behalf of” Jesus.

Another Example:-

“Jesus answered them and said, My doctrine is not Mine, but of the One who sent Me” (John 7:16).

Here again, “the Jews marveled” (verse 15) at the sayings of Jesus. They heard the doctrine from Jesus, though according to Him, it actually belonged to God.

So, the “active agency” of speaking and spreading the doctrine belonged to Jesus, not to God.

So, we can say, God gave the doctrine “through” Jesus.

That is, Jesus spoke and spread the doctrine “on behalf of” God.

Agency in the Old Testament

We see in Genesis chapter 18 that “Yahweh appeared to” Patriarch Abraham (verse 1).

How?

Abraham, one day at noon (verse 1), saw “three men standing by him” (verse 2). Abraham immediately identified One as “My Adonai” (verse 3) proving that one of the three men was Yahweh Himself with Whom Abraham had a long conversation (verses 22, 26, and 33). The other two were angels (Gen 19:1).

Now, we read in Genesis 19:24:

“And Jehovah rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from Jehovah out of the heavens”.

I see Yahweh on earth acting as the active Agent of interacting with humanity on behalf of Yahweh of the heavens.

Dia = Through/By

Now, the reader may have a doubt that none of these passages use the word “through”. That is right, but the concept cannot be missed.

However, here is another illustration with ”dia”:

Evidence # 1:-

“Truly the Son of Man goes as it has been written concerning Him, but woe to that man through (dia) whom the Son of Man is betrayed!” (Mark 14:21).

Here, the actual agent of betrayal was Judas Iscariot! Nobody else!

Judas was not in some form of sedation. He was a “thief” (John 12:6) and as the Treasurer of the Twelve, he had begun to steal money (same verse).

So, Judas did it deliberately and hence he was the “active agent” here on behalf of Satan (Luke 22:3).

Evidence # 2:-

If this is not enough, take another example from the Scripture using “dia/through”:

“There was a man sent from God; his name was John. He came for a witness, that he might witness concerning the Light, that all might believe through (dia) Him” (John 1:6-7).

We know very well that John the Baptist was NOT a passive agent in witnessing concerning the Light. He was shouting in Judea actively witnessing for Jesus!

Here again, the active agent is John the Baptist through whom the witnessing was being done!

More than Agent

But Jesus is more than a mere agent. He is “our great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13). Hence He said:

“All things which the Father has are Mine” (John 16:15). “And all My things are Yours (Father’s), and Yours are Mine” (John 17:10).

“all should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him” (John 5:23).

Conclusion

It is perfectly alright hermeneutically to declare Jesus the Creator on behalf of God the Father Creator. In fact, the active agency of creation is ascribed by the Scripture to Jesus.

The “concern” of the OP could be a dangerous one; something similar to what “naskh” in Islam means; that is, one verse is nullified and superseded by another verse. But the Bible doesn’t teach such a thing. The entire verses are taken into consideration!

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