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If this is really "every creature", when, in the opening of the first seal, has or will this occur?

[Rev 5:13 NLT] (13) And then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea. They sang: "Blessing and honor and glory and power belong to the one sitting on the throne and to the Lamb forever and ever."

[Rev 5:13 MGNT] (13) καὶ πᾶν κτίσμα ὃ ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς καὶ ὑποκάτω τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτοῖς πάντα ἤκουσα λέγοντας τῷ καθημένῳ ἐπὶ τῷ θρόνῳ καὶ τῷ ἀρνίῳ ἡ εὐλογία καὶ ἡ τιμὴ καὶ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων

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In Revelation 5:13, how should πᾶν κτίσμα be understood?

Gods' purpose is for all intelligent creation angels in heaven and mankind on earth-"πᾶν κτίσμα" - be united in true worship. The apostle John was given a vision of the situation that will exist at the end of Christ’s Millennial Reign, and he describes it at Revelation 5:13, saying:

Revelation 5:13 NASB

13 And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.”

Jesus one thousand year rule.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20%3A3-7&version=NASB;NET

1 Corinthians 15:21-28 NASB

21 For since by a man death came, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [a]Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to our God and Father when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is clear that [b]this excludes the Father who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

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  • Hi Ozzie and thank you for your answer. Since that song occurs in the opening of scroll #1, are we to understand the universal adoration to occur first in the eschatological scheme of things? And if so, are we not even in phase one yet? Also, doesn't the millennium in the passage you provided end with Satan released to cause more trouble? – Ruminator Dec 11 '20 at 21:30
  • There is another problem with this interpretation - if Rev 4 is at the end of the millennium, why does the NT so often record Jesus as already enthroned in heaven at the right hand of God? – Dottard Dec 12 '20 at 8:04
  • Dottard: When was Jesus enthroned? At Luke 21:24 Jesus said "Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." God's rulership was trampled when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians and the line of kings descented from David was interrupted. At Daniel 4:10-16 we read that the stump will not grow until seven periods have passed. – Ozzie Ozzie Dec 12 '20 at 10:43
  • . (At Rev 12:6,14 give us 1260 days for three and a half times, so seven times is 2520 days (years), count one year for each day ( Ezek4:6 Num 14:34).It then that Jesus was enthroned as God's KIng in heaven, which is at the beginning of the millennium – Ozzie Ozzie Dec 12 '20 at 10:44
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The section in the book of Revelation known as the "seven seals" (Rev 4:1 - 8:1) also contains the "seven hymns" as follows:

  1. Rev 4:8 - 4 living creatures sing to God:

Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.

  1. Rev 4:11 - 24 elders sing to God:

You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honour and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.

  1. Rev 5:9, 10 - 4 living creatures and 24 elders sing to the Lamb:

You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.

  1. Rev 5:12 - Many angels + [4] living creatures + [24] elders sing to the Lamb:

Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honour and glory and praise!

  1. Rev 5:13 - "All Creatures" sing to God and the Lamb:

To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honour and glory and power, for ever and ever!

  1. Rev 7:10 - Great multitude in white robes sing to God and Lamb:

Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.

  1. Rev 7:12 - All angels, elders and 4 living creatures sing to God:

Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honour and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!

Note that the greatest number sing in hymn number 5 (Rev 5:13) - those that sing are described as:

every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them.

This is clearly a Hebraism describing all creation in the phraseology of Ex 20:11. This is often quoted elsewhere such as: Ps 69:34, 146:6, Acts 4:24, 14:15, Rev 10:6, 12:12, etc. John 1:1-3 also alludes to this as well plus Col 1:16.

Thus, this fifth hymn in Rev 5:13 praises God and the Lamb as creator of all things and is sung by all created beings. The next hymn praises God and Lamb providing salvation. Thus, God and the Lamb are praised as creators and re-creators.

WHEN?

The timing of the enthronement ceremony of the Lamb, I believe is rather simple. Note that Rev 4 presents a scene of continuous worship of God which grinds to a halt when John sees the vacancy on the throne beside God, on the right side! This is filled by Jesus as the slain Lamb (Rev 5:6).

Thus we find Jesus taking His seat on the heavenly throne as the ruling monarch (ἐπὶ τὴν δεξιὰν = on the right). This is alluded to frequently in the NT such as: Matt 26:64, Mark 14:62, 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, 7:55-56 (standing), Rom 8:34, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1, Heb 1:3, 8:1, 10:12, 12:2, 1 Peter 3:22. See also Ps 110:1, Matt 22:44, Mark 12:36, Acts 2:34, Heb 1:13.

Thus, I assume that Jesus, upon His assension to heaven, after His resurrection, was installed in the throne of heaven, on the right hand side and began His reign as the conquering king of the universe, Rev 11:17.

During His earthly ministry, Jesus gave anticipatory evidence of this by the following:

  • He was called the king of the kingdom of Israel and the king of the kingdom of heaven, . Matt 1:1, 20, 9:27, 12:23, 15:22, 20:30, 15, 21:9, 15, Mark 10:35, Luke 1:32, 33, 18:38, 39, John 1:49, Acts 13:32-37, Heb 1:8.
  • He was in complete control of the natural elements such as when He calmed the storm on the sea of Galilee.
  • He healed many people of their diseases

Note especially the words of the angel to Mary before His birth as recorded in Luke 1:32, 33 -

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”

CONCLUSION

Thus, while, Jesus began to reign as the triumphant Lamb at His ascension, that reign will be only become undisputed when Jesus returns and Rev 11:17, 18 is fulfilled. We also have an almost parallel and confirming passage in Phil 2:9-11 - every knee will bow, etc.

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  • So would you say it is only the New Creation, some people from all nations or literally every soul some time in the future? – Ruminator Dec 20 '20 at 1:36
  • @Ruminator - the answer to that question is the same as the "who" in Phil 2:9-11 - while Jesus is king, that reign is presently disputed - not everyone agrees nor recognizes Jesus as king. Therefore, when all evil is removed and all wicked are destroyed, then Phil 2:9-11 and Rev 5:13 will fulfilled. – Dottard Dec 20 '20 at 3:40
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Important here, first of all, is that the Lamb is not put in the category of κτίσμα, creatures, for "all" means all, the entirety of the class of the creatures, both in heavens (the angelic hosts) and earth (all the rest).

The Lamb is outside this class, unless we get an absurdity of assertion that Lamb gives honour and glory to Himself. This absurdity excluded, we get the necessary outcome that Lamb is not enlisted in the class of creatures for sure, and since there is nothing in between the Uncreated and created orders, and since the Uncreated Order is totally filled only and exclusively by God, therefore the Lamb is just as God as the One sitting on the Throne, i.e. God the Father, and naturally receives the same worship as the Latter.

Thus, if the action of worship and glory is one and the same with regard of the Throne-Sitter, i.e. the Father, and the Lamb, then unless the Lamb has one and the same divine dignity with the Father, then we get an absurdity that all creation commits an act of idolatry by co-worshiping the Lamb with the Father. But since this is to be rejected as plain wrong, then we obtain that when one worships the Father it is impossible not to co-worshipping the Son also in this act of worship - indeed, lying on a beach can you enjoy the sun, without co-enjoying its rays?

And this brings us into timing as well: is not the Father worshipped and glorified always? Yes. Thus, given the aforesaid, the Son is also co-worshiped and co-glorified also always. However, there is a certain process going on in creation, in the history of mankind, through the action of God which is through Jesus, the historically incarnated Logos, which process will be fulfilled in the eschatological time, when time itself will be abolished (Rev. 10:6), and then all will appreciate and praise the victory of God's plan. And what is God's plan? That all humans may become His sons and daughters through Jesus, and if humans, the crowns of creation become God's sons by adoption of grace which came through the Incarnate Logos (John 1:17), then all creation will be jubilant, for all creation groans and expects this formation and revelation, i.e. spiritual second birth (cf. John 3:3), of the sons of God (Romans 8:19). Father and Son are praised and worshiped always together, but there will be a special state of eschatology, the end of the times, when all creation will worship and praise the historical victory of God's plan for the creation. For a similitude: Roger Federer fans at the Wimbledon central court praise Roger for his superb performance at the Wimbledon final, his great shots and rallies, but the fans specially praise him when he wins the championship point and rises a cup in glory.

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  • I'm more pondering sinners, demons and the like, and when. – Ruminator Dec 11 '20 at 20:16
  • One can only speculate, in the spirit of a sound logic. Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite would say that always all sinners and demons even participate in Good, because they at least exist and cause of existence in every creature is God, thus all creatures participate in God's gift. As.one medieval epic poet says: "Every evil person is finite, while good in this evil person is infinite", thus also demons and sinners possess good in form of existence, perhaps this can be called kind of an ontological, unintended praise on their part, in difference from intentional praise of the saints and angels. – Levan Gigineishvili Dec 11 '20 at 20:54
  • I have an idea but am seeking more input. – Ruminator Dec 11 '20 at 21:01
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    @OzzieOzzie Yes, with regard of His human nature, but not with regard of His eternal divine Person Who bears this created human nature, Who is always, eternally with the Father (John 1:1) and "all" is created through Him (ibid: 1:3), thus impossible for Him to be enlisted in the category of creatures. – Levan Gigineishvili Dec 11 '20 at 21:46
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    @OzzieOzzie Jesus has only one Person and this Person is that of eternal Logos, who after His incarnation, or better, in-human-ation, that is to say, adoption of human nature (and not human person) is called also Jesus Christ. You can address Him in prayers both like "O, Jesus, please help me in understanding this passage of the NT", or "O, Word, please help me in understanding this passage of the NT", both will be the same, for the same one eternal Person is addressed. – Levan Gigineishvili Dec 12 '20 at 9:48
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This seems to harken back to Genesis 1, to the creation account (as accounting for all creation, that is):

Genesis 1:1-22

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The earth was empty and void: and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and light was.

And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light and the darkness. >And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night: and there was evening and morning one day.

And God said, Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, to separate waters from waters.

And God made an expanse, and separated the waters under the expanse from the waters above it: and so it was.

And God called the expanse Sky: and evening and morning were a second day.

And God said, Let the waters under the sky meet in one place, and let dry land appear: and so it was.

And God called the dry ground Land, and the meeting of the waters he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

And God said, Let the land bring forth vegetation: the plant yielding seed, and the fruit tree producing fruit in which are seeds of its kind: and so it was.

And the land brought forth vegetation: the plant yielding the seed of its own species, and the tree producing fruit in which are seeds of its own kind: and so it was.

And evening and morning were a third day.

And God said, Let there be luminaries in the expanse of heaven, to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years.

And let them be luminaries in the expanse of heaven, for giving light upon the earth: and so it was.

And God made two great luminaries: the great to rule the day, and the lesser to rule the night (and the stars).

And God placed them in the expanse of heaven for lighting the earth, and to rule in the day and in the night, and to separate the light and the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

And evening and morning were a fourth day.

And God said, Let the waters teem with living things, and let fowl fly over the earth in the expanse of the sky.

And God created the great sea creature, and every kind of moving or swimming in the waters, according to their various kinds, and every kind of flying creature with wings, according to its particular kind: and God saw that it was good.

And God blessed them and said, Be fruitful, and increase, and fill the waters in the seas: and let the fowl increase on the earth.

And evening and morning were a fifth day. . . .

etc.

To refer to 'heaven and earth' and 'all that is in them' is to refer to everything created. Any possibly agency whatsoever, personified (e.g. plants, animals) and personal (e.g. angels, humans).

("The land" and "the earth" are the same word in Hebrew.)

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  • Hi Sola and thank you for your answer. What about sinners and the Satan? And when did/does this occur? I'm wondering if it might be connected to Daniel 7. – Ruminator Dec 12 '20 at 20:01
  • It's not evident from this text nor any that I know of whether demons and sinners will bow and worship God; it would seem that the purpose of their subjection to eternal suffering is because of their refusal to do so and the impossibility/uselessness of an artificial making them do so: "Thou hast no commemoration among the dead: and in hell who shall praise Thee?" – Sola Gratia Dec 12 '20 at 20:14
  • I guess that just leaves the timing. – Ruminator Dec 12 '20 at 20:22

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