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Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord, you Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone."

Also Isaiah 45:12, "It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it, I stretched out the heavens with My hands, And I ordained all their host." This is pretty clear language so how is it to be reconciled with Jesus being identified as the creator?

John 1:3, "All things came into being by Him, and apart (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being." Colossians 1:15, "For by Him all things were created, both in the in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones-all things have been created by Him and for Him."

Even God the Father stated, "And, Thou, Lord in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands." (Hebrews 1:10). One more, Revelation 3:14, "And to the angel in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God says this."

So to summarize, we have God saying He created the heavens and earth all alone and by Himself. We also have Jesus being identified or presented as the creator and without Him nothing has come into being that has come into being. (John 1:3). It must also be concluded based on these facts that Jesus Christ must have existed before His incarnation as a man.

I have to add an addendum to properly reply to those who "posit" only the Father is the one true God. Why do some of you keep trying to make "the Father" the ONLY reference to "God," when it is a term clearly employed throughout the New Testament to distinguish the Father in His "God-ness" from the Son in HIS same "God-ness" and the Holy Spirit from his self-same "God-ness."

If "the Father" alone is God, there would be no need to distinguish Him as "the Father" and one would ONLY see the same continued metaphorical applications of that term. But you don't; God is NEVER ONCE identified as "the Father" in the Old Testament (other than in a collective and metaphorical sense).

He is constantly so distinguished in the New Testament. So why bother making the distinction if there is no distinction to be made? And yes, I read the reference at Deuteronomy 32:5. The point of the verse was to show how the people were so ungrateful and rebellious towards God that they did not appreciate the fact that they owed their existence and well-being to Him.

The Father of Christ is God. That is why Christ is God - He is the Son of God - who, like all sons bears the full ontological nature of His Father. If this is not so than the Bible is a lie or at best an incredibly bad case of special pleading requiring that in this ONE instance in all of the universe a son actually does NOT bear the full nature of His own Father.

  • To confuse, perplex, and bewilder former secret agents. – Lucian Sep 27 at 6:47
  • You clearly choose to ignore many consistent revelations, one being that Jesus has the same God we do - he is never presented as God by himself or anyone else unless you are swayed to read it into a few (seemingly) ambiguous passages. While ignoring the truths presented, you persist in making 'Jesus' exist before his birth which the bible never expresses. You've asked a good Q Mr Bond but seem unable to contemplate the most biblical answer - choosing instead to proffer the same old tired constructs with scarce regard for the overall biblical narrative – user48152 Sep 28 at 22:17
  • @user48152 So why have you clearly ignored the verses I provided that declare that Jesus Christ is presented as the creator? It could not be more clear of a "revelation" especially at John 1:3. So I have verses that say Jesus is the creator and you have verses that say He is not. The verses you use are, "If Jesus is God how come He has a God." Or if Jesus is God why does Jesus say we are to worship God and Him alone? And the hits just keep on coming! So, how can you prove or reconcile with the scriptures that your position is right? I can easily do it but you go first. – Mr. Bond Sep 28 at 22:19
  • Are you serious? Maybe it's your unique sense of humour that is at play here - "... that Jesus Christ is presented as the creator? It could not be more clear of a "revelation" especially at John 1:3" Perfect example of a careless disregard for the truth - Jesus isn't the subject of John 1:3, the logos is. Jesus was born 2000 yrs ago how could he be creator? You seem uninterested in contemplating what we are clearly told - choosing your own truth by looking through the keyhole, seeing a verse here and there, oblivious to what they are connected to. – user48152 Sep 29 at 0:01
  • It is the consistent disregard for what the text says in context that makes an ongoing discussion pointless. Have a nice day. – user48152 Sep 29 at 0:01
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Not only that the Person of Logos, who after the historical incarnation/adoption of human nature, was also named Jesus Christ, existed before this historical incarnation, but He existed before all history and all creation.

Now, there is nothing but a binary opposition of Creator (God) whose realm is Eternity and creation (universe) of which realm is time, because time came into being together with the universe, having not existed before it.

The Person of Logos was before the creation (universe) for the creation, the everything of the created order, came to being through Him. Since the Person of Logos is exempted from the order of creation and time, then necessarily He belongs to the realm of Eternity. Now, only One God belongs to the order of Eternity. Therefore, the Logos, as being co-eternal to God is also God, just as the Father is, and it is perfectly outside of logic to think otherwise.

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  • I could not agree more. +1 The Genesis 1:1 "in beginning" explains what happened in the beginning. The main thought of John's 1:1 beginning emphasis who existed in the beginning. – Mr. Bond Sep 26 at 19:41
  • @Mr.Bond Thanks for reading and the up-voting; yes, in "in the beginning was Logos", the "was" (ἦν) is grammatically past indefinite and ontologically stands for the past infinity; but past infinity in the Biblical perspective can apply only to God who is perfect, and actual infinity of perfection, which is another name of God, must be totally devoid of time. Therefore the "was" of the Logos stands for the Eternity and the Godhead of the Logos. – Levan Gigineishvili Sep 26 at 20:05
  • I up-voted. I would like to enlarge on your following statement, "who after the historical incarnation/adoption of human nature, was also named Jesus Christ". The Logos could never be the "Savior"--"Jesus"--because Logos was Spirit--One with God the Spirit. Logos had to be made flesh and blood in order to pay the ransom for sin--which He was at a point in time--this day have I begotten thee. Thank you for this great answer. – Bill Porter Oct 4 at 17:45
  • @BillPorter Thanks for reading and up-voting! Logos is Person. Jesus is this very Person incarnated. This Person did not change through incarnation, being eternal, but adopted human nature, without change and mixture, He did not adopt human person. That's the essence of the Chalcedonian Christology, which I deem is the only correct Christology. – Levan Gigineishvili Oct 4 at 19:19
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This dichotomy between God of the OT and Jesus in the NT is not confined to "redeemer" and "creator". Here is a sample:

God

In the OT we have the LORD declaring that He is God alone, Deut 4:35, 6:4, 32:39; Isa 44:6, 45:5, 6. In the NT we have Jesus declared as God (ὁ Θεός) Matt 1:22, 23; John 1:1, 18, 20:28. See also Heb 1:8, 9; Tit 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, 1 Tim 3:16; Phil 2:5-8, etc

"My Lord"

In the OT we have God referred to as "My Lord" Ps 35:23 (LXX: κύριός μου). In the NT we have Jesus referred to as "My Lord" in John 20:13, 28, Luke 1:43, Phil 3:8, Matt 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 20:42, Acts 2:34.

"I AM"

In the LXX we have God referred to as "I AM" in Ex 3:13-15; Deut 32:39, Isa 41:4, 43:10, 13, 25, 45:19, 46:4, 48:12, 51:12, 52:6. In the NT Jesus takes the same title in Matt 14:27, Mark 6:50, Mark 13:6, Luke 21:8, Mark 14:62, Luke 22:70, John 4:26, 6:20, 8:24, 28, 58, 13:9, 18:5-8.

Creator

In the OT we have the LORD refers to Himself as the only, sole creator in Isa 44:24, 45:18. Jesus is called creator in John 1:3, Col 1:16, 17.

Savior

In the OT the LORD is the only Savior in Isa 43:3, 11, 45:17, 21. In the NT we have Jesus given the same title as the only Savior, Matt 1:21; Acts 4:12; 2 Tim 1:10; Tit 1:4, 2:13, 3:6; 2 Pet 1:1, 11.

Glory

The LORD in the OT says that He does not share his glory with anyone else, Isa 42:8, 48:11. In the NT Jesus has the same Glory as the Father, John 17:5, 24.

"Rock"

In the OT God is referred to as the only "Rock", Isa 44:8; Deut 32:3,4,15; Ps 92:15, etc. In the NT Jesus is also called the "Rock", 1 Cor 10:4.

"First and Last"

In the OT the LORD is called the First and Last in Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12. In the NT Jesus is given the same title, Rev 1:17, 18, 22:13.

"Lord of Lords"

in the OT, the LORD is called "Lord of Lords", Deut 10:17, Ps 136:3, 26. In the NT Jesus has the same title, Rev 17:14, 19:16.

"Lord of All"

In the OT, the LORD is called "Lord of All", Deut 10:17, Josh 3:11, 13, Ps 97:5, Zech 4:14, 6:5, Mic 4:13. In the NT Jesus is given the same title, Acts 10:36, Rom 10:12, Col 1:15.

"Seven Eyes"

In the OT the LORD is depicted as having "seven eyes" Zech 4:10. In the NT Jesus is described in the same way in Rev 5:6.

This list is NOT exhaustive. It simply illustrates that Jesus takes the same titles and functions as is given YHWH, Jehovah, the LORD in the OT. The conclusion is rather obvious!

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It is the Scriptures themselves that "reconcile" what appears to be contradictions. For example, "If Jesus is God why does He say we are to worship Him only?" Or, if Jesus is God why did He not know the day of His own return?" One more, "If Jesus is God why does the Bible say the Father is the one true God," meaning that Jesus Christ cannot be God.

Philippians 2:5-8 explains the Son voluntarily took upon himself the form of a servant and the likeness of a man and submitted himself to the Father in that form thereby foregoing His innate divinity and the powers associated with that divinity. Philippians 2:7-8.

Philippians 2:5-6 states, "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, verse 6, who, although (or in spite of the fact) He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped."

Greek Scholar A.T.Robertson explains verse 6,

Being (υπαρχων — huparchōn). Rather, “existing,” present active participle of υπαρχω — huparchō In the form of God (εν μορπηι τεου — en morphēi theou). Μορπη — Morphē means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ."

Also, see that word "but" that verse 7 begins with? That means what follows is going to be the "antithesis" of what preceded it: alla; an adversative particle originally the neut. pl. of allos, other. A particle implying in speech some diversity or super addition to what preceded. It serves, therefore, to mark opposition, antithesis, or transition. "Complete Word Study Dictionary, The - New Testament."

There is "NOT" some kind of assumed separation between the divine and human natures of Jesu Christ. They, (according to the verses above) are both equally present in the one person of Christ.

I ask the following question? Please define the logos? Answer: 'logos' is variably translated in context as; word, statement, story, message, reason, to say, report, speech, news, account, utterance, assertion, instruction, command, and others. No other passages reveal the logos as a 'person' with some kind of separate 'life' from God until Jesus is born (the 'logos' became flesh) and given the title, the Word of God."

The Apostle John at 1 John 1:1 refutes the idea that the "Logos/Word" is just a title. What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word/Logos of Life."

A full explanation is given by Greek Scholar A.T.Robertson on 1 John 1:1-2. https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rwp/1-john-1.html

It should be noted that the "Son" does not have some sort of separate life from God the Father ontologically speaking. There is only one God who chose to manifest Himself as three "distinct" persons as the Bible teaches.

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  • Nice try. You assume the Son - not mentioned anywhere. Explain how Jesus (as God) can exist in the form of God, but God never could. John 1 refers to the new beginning - what we have seen with our eyes! You still can't get around Jesus having a God - the same God as us. "three "distinct" persons as the Bible teaches" - it never does. All the while you persist with the rubbery explanations while ignoring the plain statements - somehow justifying a position without including all that is said on the matter. It's not you, it's the nonsense they teach us. – user48152 Sep 29 at 22:46
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    @user48152 Don't you think I know that your a biblical unitarian and I know where you get your information. biblicalunitarian.com/videos/but-what-about-john-1-1 Then there is Anthony Buzzard whom I have known about for over 40 years. He graduated from the Worldwide Church of God started by Herbert W. Armstrong and was considered a cult. So don't tell me what I learned from the Bible is nonsense. I follow the advice of Acts 17:11. I highly suggest you do the same because you have been "duped." There's a saying, "Tell me who is Jesus Christ and I will tell you what you believe." – Mr. Bond Sep 29 at 23:33
  • :) I didn't know that - I'll look out for you on the other side. – user48152 Sep 29 at 23:48
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    @user48152 The Word was made a Jew, "made under the law." As the Son of God/Son of man under the law, Jesus still spoke the Word of God to the Jews--that same Word of God who called out to Adam while walking in the garden in Gen 3:8--that same Word of God who commanded Adam to not eat of that forbidden fruit--that same Word of God who cursed the earth, made the** promise** of the "seed of the woman" to the woman, and was afterward made that very seed--that lawgiver while under the law, was compelled, by that very law He proclaimed, honored His Father and worshiped God only.** – Bill Porter Sep 29 at 23:49
  • exactly - almost perfect! But if you think that ('the who' or eternal) Word of God is the Son who can die, you have a problem sticking to the text. That's why they have to make all that guff up about two natures etc. That's why they have to change the text in numerous places to prop up their theology, that's why they have to mandate a doctrine that is not remotely biblical to the top of the tree as if salvation depended on believing it. Jesus said, "But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has spoken to you the truth that I heard from God." Go figure! – user48152 Sep 30 at 0:01
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The Old Testament revealed that God created all things by himself meant there was no other god present at the time of the creation of all things. Only Yahweh was there. There is no other god beside Yahweh. But there exists the Word who was God by nature because he was in the bosom of God 'the Father' (John 1:1, 1:18). The Word was through whom all things were made (John 1:3). The Word was not a separate god beside the God of Israel. The Word was God by nature, possessing the same nature as his own father who was God. The Word naturally belongs to the Father who begat him just as a word naturally belongs to the mind or mouth where it originated.

The Word shares in the divine nature (the attribute of omnipotence - the ability to do all things) and divine identity (as creator) of the Father who begets him. They were both active in the creation of the world. But their relationship does not pose as polytheistic but as monotheistic because the Word (who shares in the nature of God) was through whom the one God, the Father, creates. (For us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things. 1 Cor 8:6).

Paul ,in one of the earliest epistles (Philippians 2:10), believed Jesus to be the KYRIOS to whom every knee bows in Isaiah 45 ("I am KYRIOS and there is no one beside me. Every knee bows TO ME"). There is no contradiction but rather, a theology that shows the Father and Jesus possessing the same thing i.e. the name above every name which indicated power over and above every creature --- in heaven, earth and under the earth. (ibid. 2:9-11).

The Word was God by nature because the Son of God who was begotten from the Father who was God. So his father is God that is why he, the Son, is God (John 1:18). The Word was God (God the only begotten - μονογενης θεος) before all things were made (John 1:1, 1:3, 1:18). That is, the Word/Son was eternally begotten because time and space, heaven and earth, had not yet been made when the begetting occurred.

The Word became flesh and was named Jesus (John 1:14). This Word (who was God) did not indwell another man but rather, he himself became flesh (i.e. took upon himself human nature see Hebrews 2:14). This was the incarnation. In him all the fullness of deity [Greek: θεοτης - all of what makes God God) dwells bodily (Colossians 2:9).

In John's 'epilogue', Jesus called the Father my God (John 20:17) whilst at the same time accepting Thomas's belief that He (Jesus) was his God ("my God") (John 20:28). There is no contradiction here because in the 'prologue' of John, both the Father and Jesus were called God (θεος). In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. This did not result into ditheism because the Father and the Word (Jesus) are one (John 10:29-35).

Conclusion

Yahweh creating all things by himself does not exclude his only begotten Son - who exists in his very own bosom - as his agent in creating all things. No Graeco-Roman god fills the role like that which the Father himself possesses i.e. the one God who created all things through the one Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 8:6). The many gods did not create through the many Lords. Only the Father did create through Jesus. Here the Father and the Son are not under ditheism because they are not separate deities. They are under monotheism because of their both ontological equality and functional unity . This oneness makes them one God.

  • The first para contains several errors - the 'word' is not in the bosom of the Father, nor does the 'word' have a father, nor was the 'word' begat by the Father. I guess you can read it anyway you like, but that is not what John writes. Upon that faulty beginning you proceed to disregard the text at will. If you think that 'fullness of deity' dwelling in Jesus makes him God, ask yourself if God also has the 'fullness of deity' dwelling in Him - Of course He doesn't, but Jesus the man does. – user48152 Sep 29 at 0:29
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    @user48152, If the Word was with God BEFORE "all things" were made in v 3, then, it logically follows that the Word was located neither in heaven nor on earth (which were not yet made) but at God for God alone was existing in the beginning and he existed with the Word who was of the same nature as him (θεος) in v. 1. The Word was θεος (God, a god). Only persons are described as θεος 100% of the time in the Bible. Word functions as a title for Jesus just as Lamb, Light, Door, were his titles in the Johannine gospel. – Radz Matthew C. Brown Sep 29 at 0:48
  • Yes, you are largely correct - but that is not reflected in your post. That Jesus is the Word, does not make him the logos in the beginning! When the logos became flesh ~4BC Jesus came to be - not before that. (the 'persons' bit is of your making) hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/47927/… – user48152 Sep 29 at 0:56
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    @user48152, your answer does not make sense regarding the Word in John 1:1 because , i repeat, he was called "θεος" which is a noun only used to refer to personal beings , never to impersonal things, in the Bible. – Radz Matthew C. Brown Sep 29 at 14:01
  • @user48152 where do you think “the word” expression of John1:1 comes from? Or put differently why did John choose to call Jesus “the word”? When you can understand the OT correlation then things might start to open up for you because right now you’re extremely rigid. “God is spirit, so how can he have a body?” I’m paraphrasing you, God ‘the spirit’ can enter a body and live in a body. Spirits inhabit bodies, that’s how Adam came to life, whether newly created spirits or preexisting spirits. Heb10:5 – Nihil Sine Deo Oct 3 at 13:19
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I would like to present the following Biblical truth and related supporting facts for more search of truth:

  1. The is only one Creator, God the Father:

• Gen. 1:1 (NKJV) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. • Deut. 32:6 (NKJV) …? Is He not your Father, who bought you? Has He not made you and established you? • Isa. 45:12 (NKJV) I have made the earth. And I created man on it. I – My hands – stretched out the heavens, and all their host I have commanded. • Isa. 45:18 (NKJV) For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens, who is God, who formed the earth and made it, who has established it, who did not create it in vain, who formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord, and there is no other. • Acts 17:24-25 (NKJV) …: “God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, …, … He gives to all life, breath, and all things. …” • 1Cor. 8:6 (NKJV) … yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; … • Eph. 3:9 (NKJV) …, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things …

Strong’s definition of ‘create (bara: 1254)’: Bara’ means “to create, make.” (1) This verb is of profound theological significance, since it has only God as its subject. (1a) Only God can “create” in the sense implied by bara’. (1b) The verb expresses creation out of nothing, an idea seen clearly in passages having to do with creation on cosmic scale: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1:1; cf. Gen. 2:3; Isa. 40:26; 42:5).

By reserving this word to describe God’s creativity, the Scripture makes clear that divine and human creativity are different.

  1. As to how the creation brought to existence, here is what the Scripture tells us:

• God said, “let there be …” (Gen. 1:3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 24, 26); • Psa. 33:6-9 (poetic summary of Genesis 1): By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and all the hosts of them by the breath of His mouth (see Psa. 148:5 as well). • John 1:3 (prelude to the Gospel concerning the creation account of Gen. 1): All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (please note that the subject of John 1:1-3 is ‘the Word’). • Colossians 1:15-16 (NKJV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. • Heb. 1:2: (Pauline account of Gen. 1): God, …, through whom also He made the worlds; …, and Heb. 11:3: … the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. • 2Pet. 3:5: …: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out water and in the water, …

Please note that the use of the word “through/by” is consistent throughout.

  1. Below is the Strong’s definition of the word “through (NKJV)/by (Authorized (King James) Version)” in John 1:3:-

1223 dia, ‘dee-ah’; a primary prep. denoting the channel of an act; … It is also advisable to see the definition of the words (prepositions) “through” or “by” in secular dictionaries that fits into the context of John 1:3.

I believe what apostle Paul wrote in 1Cor. 8:6 summarizes the truth presented above:

Yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

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  • nice, but perhaps you could answer the Q! You also seem to have confused or not presented clearly #2 - is ‘the Word' the image of the invisible God? – user48152 Sep 28 at 21:00
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After giving this much thought, I think the key is to be found in this passage:

[Jhn 14:8-14 NLT] (8) Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied." (9) Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you? (10) Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me. (11) Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do. (12) "I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father. (13) You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. (14) Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!

Jesus explains that he does not get credit for anything he does because apart from God, he is nothing. And though, by God’s power he does wonderous things, still, he adds nothing to God. God alone gets the credit because the Messiah says and does only as directed and empowered by God, just as surely as the rain does not give life on its own:

[Isa 55:10-11 NLT] (10) "The rain and snow come down from the heavens and stay on the ground to water the earth. They cause the grain to grow, producing seed for the farmer and bread for the hungry. (11) It is the same with my word [LOGOS]. I send it out, and it always produces fruit. It will accomplish all I want it to, and it will prosper everywhere I send it.

The LOGOS is divine utterance because it/he proceeds from the mouth of God.

[1Co 12:6 NLT] (6) God works in different ways, but it is the same God who does the work in all of us.

[1Co 15:10 NLT] (10) But whatever I am now, it is all because God poured out his special favor on me--and not without results. For I have worked harder than any of the other apostles; yet it was not I but God who was working through me by his grace.

[Eph 3:19-20 NLT] (19) May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God. (20) Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think.

[Eph 4:6 NLT] (6) and one God and Father, who is over all and in all and living through all.

[2Th 1:12 NLT] (12) Then the name of our Lord Jesus will be honored because of the way you live, and you will be honored along with him. This is all made possible because of the grace of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ.

[Jhn 5:30 NLT] (30) I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.

Please see also:

[Jhn 16:12-15 NLT] (12) "There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can't bear it now. (13) When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. (14) He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me. (15) All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, 'The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.'

From, “The Wisdom of Solomon” Chapter 7:

21 I learned both what is secret and what is manifest, 22 for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me.

There is in her a spirit that is intelligent, holy, unique, manifold, subtle, mobile, clear, unpolluted, distinct, invulnerable, loving the good, keen, irresistible, 23 beneficent, humane, steadfast, sure, free from anxiety, all-powerful, overseeing all, and penetrating through all spirits that are intelligent, pure, and altogether subtle. 24 For wisdom is more mobile than any motion; because of her pureness she pervades and penetrates all things. 25 For she is a breath of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty; therefore nothing defiled gains entrance into her. 26 For she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness. 27 Although she is but one, she can do all things, and while remaining in herself, she renews all things; in every generation she passes into holy souls and makes them friends of God, and prophets; 28 for God loves nothing so much as the person who lives with wisdom. 29 She is more beautiful than the sun, and excels every constellation of the stars. Compared with the light she is found to be superior, 30 for it is succeeded by the night, but against wisdom evil does not prevail.

Bible Gateway passage: Wisdom 7 - New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

It is self-evident that this passage from Wisdom of Solomon is the origin of much of the Christology of the NT.

======= Cut and pasted from my answer to my own similar question on Quora:

https://www.quora.com/Does-John-1-1-4-contradict-Isaiah-45-5-6-and-12/answer/Bill-Ross-22

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One must be very careful to read such things in context.

Is Jesus presented as creator? He is a Redeemer to be sure because it was his blood that was given for all men.

We read in Heb 1:1-2 some important information that must be included in an exegetical approach.

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

  1. the Son is 'appointed heir'. If he supposedly made the 'world' then that is quite odd. In fact, it tells us that Jesus cannot be God as he cannot then be the heir too. God created and appointed Jesus as the heir to all that was made.
  2. It clearly says that God is the one who spoke to the 'fathers' and in these last days He speaks through the son, Jesus.
  3. And no, Jesus/the Son didn't make the 'world', this is more correctly rendered 'ages'. The word 'world' (or even 'universe') is used to convey a concept not authentic to the text.
  4. Your references to John 1:3 and Colossians 1:15 must also be read carefully considering the context - not just by reading the words in isolation from other passages.

John 1:3 is talking about the 'logos'. Jesus is the logos become flesh which happened ~4BC. So we cannot read, 'in the beginning was Jesus'. We cannot read, 'all things came into being by Jesus'. That is not what it says, and not what it means.

Colossians 1:15 is talking about the 'new creation' of the church of which Jesus is the head. This new creation is such because of the new thing that has happened - someone has moved from death to life eternal - Jesus is that one. Further, it's better translated, because 'IN' him were the all things created (rather than 'by') as is emphasised by repetition at the end of v16

'all things have been created through him, and for him'

The new creation continues when Jesus, given the Holy Spirit by his Father, then gave it out to the believers according to the promise.

"Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. Acts 2:33

Thus there is nothing in these texts that lead us to confirm suspicions that Jesus somehow pre-existed his own birth. He certainly was in God's foreknowledge and many prophecies and visions on the new age/covenant etc that Jesus will usher in with his death and resurrection.

1 Pet 1:20 he(Jesus) was foreknown before the creation of the world -

obviously intimating at the very least, that he didn't exist yet.

Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Notice we too are foreknown and are part of the plan of God which included Jesus.

Finally, we must be careful to assume nothing. When we read 'creation', we must be sure to understand which creation is referenced - either Genesis, the church - which is the foundation for the Kingdom, or the final new creation of heavens and earth after all have been judged. Translators are somewhat biased depending on many factors (hence the wide variety of bibles) so we must then examine why they choose one English word over another - world vs ages for eg. and make our own informed choice.

The main consideration we must eventually make is whether we will choose the bible over traditional teachings which often have little, obscure, or no biblical support - especially with regard to Jesus and the nature of God.

Regarding 'redeemer', there are several titles attributed to the Father and the son like Saviour, King of Kings etc. These do not allow us to assume that either, they are the same 'person', or that Jesus is God because God has those titles too. Certainly Jesus IS a redeemer, as is His Father - they need each other to accomplish it the way it was planned.

Jesus is not presented as Creator. The Creator, the Father gave His only son to die for all and then exalted the raised, immortal Jesus to His right hand.

1 Pet 3:18 ‘For Christ also died for sins once for all… so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit’

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    In this piece you have NOT answered the question, but only been critical about what certain things are NOT. This contribute nothing to the discussion except confusion about what you actually believe and the mysterious source from whence it arises. – Dottard Sep 27 at 8:25
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"God says He is the Redeemer and He created all things all alone and by Himself, then why is Jesus presented as the creator and Redeemer?" All the recorded Gospel conversations were spoken, and written, in Hebrew, but had to be translated into Greek to be distributed to the different Greek churches. Copies of these manuscripts were given to a Greek manuscript merchant, who acted as an editor who was not under any obligation himself to be strictly accurate in dictation to his group of scribes. Next the scribes themselves were not graded on grammar, spelling, or on quoting the proctor word for word. That was the pagan Greek world of published literature.
Typically, there were more letter errors in a single verse of transcribed Greek than in the entire Torah (first five books of the OT, which had to be letter perfect or else the Bible Code in the Torah would be impossible.) There is a Bible Code found in the New Testament, but it too depends on accuracy found in the oldest and best possible manuscripts. Search both NT and OT Bible Codes. The Codes show Yahweh's direction of the original documents, and also his involvement in the creation of both languages' alphabets. Why is there confusion and contradictions between the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts? God allowed the pagan Greeks to abridge the original messages with their personal concepts of their convoluted heathen doctrines. The resulting riddles-within-riddles makes it hard for us students to get at the truth. Also God gives understanding to certain students, and not others. As Jesus said to his disciples, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." And, "But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." Matthew 13:11,16.

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  • Thanks for your contribution - the site seeks some basis for your assertions whether from scriptural examples (preferable) or otherwise as appropriate. What you say has merit, but needs to show supporting sources. – user48152 Sep 27 at 9:02
  • Welcome to BHSX. Thanks for your contribution. Do not forget to take the tour (link below) to better understand how this site works. – Dottard Oct 4 at 5:29
  • This does not attempt to answer the question. It argues for personal revelation and argues against knowledge through the text of scripture. – Nigel J Oct 4 at 18:52

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