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Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren

Col 1:15 ...the firstborn over all creation.

Scripture says Jesus was the 'firstborn' several times.

After he was raised by his Father, he was granted several things that clearly weren't his before.

  1. Ability to have life in himself
  2. Able to impart life to others Acts 2:33
  3. Became imperishable

Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

Acts 2:33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

2 Cor 5:16... have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.

If Jesus has two births, the second to join God in imperishibility, has he not been born again?

As we've seen, both states/stages applied to Jesus.

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    You will need to show that Jesus was "born again" for this question to be valid! A text saying that Jesus was the firstborn does not demonstrate this. – Dottard May 20 '20 at 23:52
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Only sinners need to be born again and Jesus was not a sinner. Your question "assumes" Jesus had to be born again. 1 Peter 2:22, "Who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth." The Apostle Peter is quoting Isaiah 53:9.

Hebrews 4:15, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin."

I also noticed that the first part of your question is not related to the second part regarding Colossians 1:15. The verse is "NOT" teaching Jesus was actually born/birthed at some point in time. Also, it is not teaching that Jesus is a created being.

Some groups like the Jehovah Witnesses do teach Jesus was the first person created based on this verse and other verses. The Greek word for "first created" would be proto with ktizo, and the Apostle Paul did not use this word for first created.

Paul used the Greek word, "proto with tikto" which indicates His priority and sovereignty over all creation. Colossians 1:16 reinforces this interpretation by emphaszing that Christ's relationship to creation is not that of being part of it but that of bringing all things into existence. John 1:3 and Revelation 3:14 support this meaning.

There is also a difference between the word "by" and the the word "through." By in this context means "origin" or by the agency of, a result. Through is used to indicate "The manner in which something is achieved. I know the words are sometimes used interchangeably but there is a difference in the two prepositions.

In summary, Jesus Christ did not have to be born again and Jesus Christ is not a created being but rather the creator, i.e. God in flesh, John 1:1-14.

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  • Good point that Paul did not use the Greek word that means "first created" with regard to Jesus. – Lesley May 19 '20 at 16:00
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    good tangent. You've totally ignored the text of Rom 8:29 - he WOULD be firstborn of many brethren. Clearly this is not his 'Mary' birth. – user48152 May 19 '20 at 21:14
  • @user48152 Who said anything about "this is Mary's birth?" The word "firstborn" is used/applied at various text including Colossians 1:15,18, Hebrews 1:6 and Revelation 1:5. So which reference do you think applies? I like in reference to His death and resurrection. Romans 1:4, "who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead." In other words, His resurrection proved that He was the Son of God. It also proved that His resurrection conquered death because He was the first to resurrect in a "permanent way." Jesus resurrected Lazarus but Lazarus eventually died. – Mr. Bond May 19 '20 at 22:00
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    @Mr Bond 'Jesus Christ did not have to be born again' is in conflict with the scriptures which say he will be. - as believers will be also (I'm not saying he was a sinner either) – user48152 May 19 '20 at 22:13
  • @user48152 Can you please be more specific and post the verse or verses that follow your comment "is in conflict with the scriptures which say he will be.---Be what? Were not mind readers around here. – Mr. Bond May 20 '20 at 0:28
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The question hinges, in all three texts quotes, on the meaning of the Greek word πρωτότοκος (prototokos). Interestingly, this word, which occurs 8 times in the NT, is always applied to Jesus except in Heb 12:23 (more on this later) and Heb 11:28.

BDAG lists the meanings of πρωτότοκος (prototokos) as:

  1. pertaining to birth order, firstborn, eg, Luke 2:7 (of Jesus), Heb 11:28 (of the firstborn in Egypt)
  2. pertaining to having special status associated with a firstborn, firstborn, eg, (a) of Christ: Rom 8:29, Heb 1:6, Rev 1:5, 2:8, Col 1:15, 18. (b) of ordinary humans, specifically God's people who follow the archetype, "firstborn" namely committed Christians, Heb 12:23.

Jesus was perfect and sinless. Note Heb 7:24-27

But because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood. … Such a high priest truly befits us—One who is holy, innocent, undefiled, set apart from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people; He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself.

Therefore, Jesus did not need to be born again in the sense that we need to be. Jesus was at pains to point out this very matter to Nicodemus (John 3) that we need to be born again (actually, from above see v31, John 19:11, 23, James 1:17, 3:15, 17 for the same preposition, ἄνωθεν (anóthen)) because Jesus is born (come from) from above.

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  • ty. Are you saying he wasn't born again... b/c he didn't need to be? The Q is, WHEN was he born again? – user48152 May 20 '20 at 6:30
  • Actually, Jesus as Mary's firstborn is only mentioned once in Luke. Jesus was Mary's first born but he was not the first born person. He was the firstborn among the brethren. – Dottard May 20 '20 at 8:50
  • you seem stuck on the physical birth... Jesus Spiritual birth was at his resurrection - as all believers will also be born again then. Jesus is 'firstborn from among the dead', so that means his new eternal life began after the Father raised him from the grave. – user48152 May 20 '20 at 10:03
  • @user48152 Your the one that is stuck or confused. Your equating John 3 about being born again spiritually with Jesus being the "firstborn" of all creation. He is the pre-eminent one of all things because of who He is. Firstborn from the dead means He conquered death permanently for us at His resurrection. Jesus did not begin eternal life after He was raised from the dead. He is eternal life incarnate. Plus at John 2:19 Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP." So Jesus raised Himself, the Father raised Him up and so did the Holy Spirit. Read John 5:21. – Mr. Bond May 20 '20 at 13:54
  • 'Jesus did not begin eternal life after He was raised from the dead' Jesus was born only 33 yrs previously, how do you figure? – user48152 May 21 '20 at 2:27
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Q. Was Jesus 'born again'? If so, when?

Short answer: Yes, when he was brought up from hADES.

I take the background of this figure to be Ezekiel 37 and the valley of dry bones, which speaks of the resurrection of Israel. The reconstitution and renewal of Israel is referred to in Acts and elsewhere as the "regeneration" (rebirth) aka "the hope of Israel":

[Eze 37:11-17 YLT] (11) And He saith unto me, 'Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; lo, they are saying: Dried up have our bones, And perished hath our hope, We have been cut off by ourselves. (12) Therefore, prophesy, and thou hast said unto them, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I am opening your graves, And have brought you up out of your graves, O My people, And brought you in unto the land of Israel. (13) And ye have known that I am Jehovah, In My opening your graves, And in My bringing you up out of your graves, O My people. (14) And I have given My Spirit in you, and ye have lived, And I have caused you to rest on your land, And ye have known that I Jehovah, I have spoken, and I have done it, An affirmation of Jehovah.' (15) And there is a word of Jehovah unto me, saying, (16) 'And thou, son of man, take to thee one stick, and write on it, For Judah, and for the sons of Israel, his companions; and take another stick, and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel, his companions, (17) and bring them near one unto another, to thee, for one stick, and they have become one in thy hand.

[Mat 19:28 YLT] (28) And Jesus said to them, 'Verily I say to you, that ye who did follow me, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man may sit upon a throne of his glory, shall sit -- ye also -- upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel;

[Tit 3:5 YLT] (5) (not by works that are in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness,) He did save us, through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit,

[Act 1:6 YLT] (6) They, therefore, indeed, having come together, were questioning him, saying, 'Lord, dost thou at this time restore the reign to Israel?'

The hope of Israel was the rebirth of the throne of the Davidic line in the person of the Messiah aka Anointed One.

The other key passage is, in my view, this:

[Isa 66:6-11 NLT] (6) What is all the commotion in the city? What is that terrible noise from the Temple? It is the voice of the LORD taking vengeance against his enemies. (7) "Before the birth pains even begin, Jerusalem gives birth to a son. (8) Who has ever seen anything as strange as this? Who ever heard of such a thing? Has a nation ever been born in a single day? Has a country ever come forth in a mere moment? But by the time Jerusalem's birth pains begin, her children will be born. (9) Would I ever bring this nation to the point of birth and then not deliver it?" asks the LORD. "No! I would never keep this nation from being born," says your God. (10) "Rejoice with Jerusalem! Be glad with her, all you who love her and all you who mourn for her. (11) Drink deeply of her glory even as an infant drinks at its mother's comforting breasts."

In the preceding passage reference is made to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, per Matthew 24, etc. But before this "great tribulation" a son, the Messiah, is born to Jerusalem in the unlikely figure of a woman giving birth and only afterwards experience birth pains.

But notice that the son's birth is also the birth of the nation (see the bold text above). This, I believe, shows that Jesus, as the first born from among the dead is the first "reborn" from the dead, because he died in the old "heaven and earth" (IE: under the Torah) and was resurrected as the first of many brothers in "the Israel of God" aka "the New Creation" aka "the New Jerusalem" aka "the New Covenant People" aka "the Kingdom of God" etc.

It is in this way he is "reborn"... as "the first born from the dead".

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  • interesting ty. I'm not following the birth pangs prior bit, but I sense the new nation is the church? The start if the new creation? – user48152 May 25 '20 at 22:38
  • Hi @user48152 , I don't believe we've met before. I don't know if you realize this but you can provide a more personal name in the settings somehow. Not to be picky, but no, in my view there is no "the church", only Resurrected Israel aka the In-gathering/Assembly aka the Kingdom of God aka the Body of Christ aka the New Jerusalem aka the True Vine, etc. "Church" is something to do with Catholicism or something I'm not familiar with from scripture, having to do with the bogus "Replacement Ecclesiology". :o) – Ruminator May 25 '20 at 22:51
  • Hi @Ruminator so re the church... where do the gentiles get included in all that? They are not Israel, yet they are grafted into the Vine. – user48152 Jun 5 '20 at 4:13
  • @user48152 The True Vine is the Israel of God which is the body of Christ. The unscriptural term "Church" suggests a disconnect that doesn't exist. It is still Israel only having died (the physical temple destroyed, the Jews dying to the law/Torah to be married to another etc.) and resurrected: [Mar 14:58 NIV] (58) "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.' " [Jhn 2:19 NIV] (19) Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." – Ruminator Jun 5 '20 at 11:05
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John 3

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ...
8 The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it came, and where it goes: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus was born again when he was water-baptized by John and Spirit-baptized by God. This was the mechanical process that Jesus had gone through.

Matthew 3

13 Then came Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized by him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized by you, and come you to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Permit it to be so now: for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he permitted him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up immediately out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Even though Jesus was sinless, as a man, he had to fulfill all righteousness including the born-again righteousness. This was the legal process of justification.

As a man, Jesus had to be justified by being born again with water and Spirit.

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  • When baptised he received the spirit as a gift as we do when baptised according to the promise. This is not being born of the spirit as he is still only flesh - as are we – user48152 Jun 25 '20 at 21:31
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John 3:5, Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Note that Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit, not the seed of man. Jesus was also born of a woman whose name means water (Mary - see latin word for sea and its etymology) and the Hebrew name Miriam associated with water. In this way, he was the prototypical birth of water and spirit.

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  • thx, how does any of that answer the Q? – user48152 Jun 25 '20 at 22:26
  • Q is “was jesus born again.” One is born again through water and spirit (John 3:5). That is how Jesus was born in the first place. – Gus L. Jun 25 '20 at 22:28
  • 'first place' he was born of the flesh then - that is not firstborn among many brethren. He is still flesh and can die. – user48152 Jun 25 '20 at 22:41
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Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren.

Other, or many brethren - faithful believers, will follow Jesus rebirth - via the same process.

He was firstly born of Mary. This isn't the same 'birth' as being firstborn of many brethren. This is the birth of flesh.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus was born a man, in a natural perishable state, from Mary - he died in that state and waited on the Father to raise him.

1 Peter 1:23 Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God

Rom 6:9 Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

Now Jesus has been re-born imperishable. Just as believers will be in their allotted time.

Jesus was born twice - One of flesh by the intervention of God and His Spirit.

The other, after death - raised to a life of spirit, that was eternal, unable to die again. But he is not A spirit as noted in Luke 24:39

"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

God is a spirit, angels are spirits, Jesus is human, "a man who has told you the truth" John 8:40

Acts 2:33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

1 Cor 15:42-4 sown a perishable body, raised a spiritual body.

Clearly Jesus fits this scenario as he was perishable - otherwise he could not die. So he was raised imperishable - which is the firstborn of the dead.

Jesus had two births, the second to join God in imperishibility, thus he has been born again! A change of state has occurred, from fleshly life to spirit life. Though he is still flesh according to his remarks in Luke 24:36-9 He is alive by the spirit, making his body different to his 'body' before death. That which is born of the flesh is flesh(ly), and that which is born of the spirit is spiritual. As we've seen, both states/stages applied to Jesus.

So to summarise; Jesus WAS born again AT his resurrection and imminent ascension. His first birth of flesh (in which he died) and second of spirit (in which he cannot die) as 'the firstborn of many'.

So, following Jesus transition from fleshly to spiritual, from death to life, believers will be born again at our resurrection or change - just as he was.

This is not about whether Jesus needed to be born from above (again) because of sin. It is about his change of state from physical to spiritual. He is the initial or firstfruit of all who follow - being changed from flesh life (ending in death) to spirit life (eternal).


We note the parameters Jesus and Paul have provided regarding 'born again'. Or as Jesus said, 'born from above' in his teaching to Nicodemus.

Flesh and blood cannot see/enter/inherit the Kingdom John 3:3, 1 Cor 15:50 Rom 8 speaks of the stage we presently hold as heirs - not yet inheritors. We wait and hope for the new life as those following the firstborn of all.

1 Pet 1:4 To an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.

1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins. We can play with this verse to make it fit our doctrines or read it as intended.

1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in His great mercy has begotten us anew to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

What are we hoping for? That which is yet to come - we don't hope for that which already is. It seems we are presently begotten - not yet born, as other verses noted testify.

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  • @User48152...your answer almost works, however a couple of issues...in john 2.19-21 Jesus clearly says destroy this temple and "I" will raise it in 3 days!. He raised himself as part of the trinity Godhead. Also, the act of Baptism with water is a public expression of being born again...it is not the rebirth process itself. Being born again spiritually was demonstrated by the story of Enoch Genesis 5:21-24. – Adam Feb 5 at 18:23
  • We are told to abide in him we must walk as Jesus walked ...1 John 2:1-6. Jesus set us an example to follow. HE was the first born again Christian. This does not mean he was created into existence. I think a point of confusion with Jesus is that he come the God man/man God ...ie Son of man. People seem to forget that in this topic of debate. This does not mean Jesus is not "G"od as JW's errantly persist in believing! – Adam Feb 5 at 18:23
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Being born anew in John 3 is to receive God, who is the Spirit, and Christ, who is the life-giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45), into your human spirit, to be joined, mingled, with Him, the Triune God, to constitute one spirit (1 Cor 6:17), which is to make one a member, a part, of the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12; Rm 12), to be His expression and counterpart (Gen 1:26; Eph 5), to express Him and satisfy Him for eternity as the New Jerusalem. It is to receive, so as to possess permanently, irrevocably, and ontologically the divine life, which is contained in the divine Person, which is God Himself, the I Am, but also contained in and joined to the Son of Man, with His sinless, perfect, created, glorified humanity.

The Son of God, Jesus Christ, was and always has been born or begotten of God since He is eternal, without beginning (Heb 7:3), and His Father is eternally His Father. He's never not had the divine life because He both eternally receives eternal life, and He is eternal life. Jn 1:4. He's the Resurrection and the Life. So He's never needed to be born anew. He's always new. There's an ancient expression of Them: "Always a Father, always a Son." Being born anew isn't to start over with your human life: it's to become an actual and "natural" (versus adopted) child of God through receiving and becoming one with God's life in the most interior part of your being.

Although Adam and Eve, before they sinned and became full of sin, both needed to be born anew---now there are only sinners. Thus only sinful human beings can be born anew, through forgiveness and justification by Christ shedding His blood, which permits the righteous, holy, and sinless GodMan to enter into us, mingle with us in our spirit, and begin to spread to and transform our entire being: spirit, soul, and body, conforming us to Himself. Glorification, the culmination of this experience, salvation, and process, is also compared to birth in Romans 8---although us believers' regeneration (being born anew in our spirit) is in 8:16 particularly.

For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now. And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body. Rm 8:19-23.

God, the Son of God, is born eternally. There's an eternal flow of life (and love) from Father to Son. The Son of God was born into Mary's womb (Mt 1:21; Lk 1:31, 34) in conception through the Holy Spirit to be Emmanuel, God with us. The Son of God was delivered by Mary in the manger (Mt 1:25; 2:1; Lk 2:5-7, 11). There's an ancient and modern expression calling her the "mother of God." Of course she's not the source of His divinity (1 Cor 11:8), but she did then gestate and deliver God incarnate (Lk 1:42-43).

Birth imagery and words also describe Christ's resurrection. That's Romans 8:29 and Colossians 1:18. "You are My Son, this day have I begotten You" is the prophecy in the Psalms, repeated three times I believe in the New Testament. Referring not to Christ Son of God before He became a man (Jn 1:14), and referring not to His conception in the womb or birth in the manger; but referring to Jesus' resurrection, where His created part--His human life, body, being, nature: His humanity--was "officially" designated Son of God. Christ never stopped being God, the Son of God; He never altered or "changed" His divinity; and He always was, and is, one person. But He did become a man and add humanity to divinity so as to save us, men (and women), and become our Savior, both judicially and organically, both objectively and subjectively.

Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, a called apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh, who was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness out of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord. Rm 1:1-4.

Now we do not yet see all things subjected to Him, but we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels because of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death on behalf of everything. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, "I will declare Your name to My brothers; in the midst of the church I will sing hymns of praise to You." Heb 2:8-12. (See also Jn 20:17.)

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  • forgive me, are you saying by 'Birth imagery and words also describe Christ's resurrection' that Jesus was born again at his resurrection? – user48152 May 19 '20 at 21:33
  • Yes.... Though "born again"/"born anew", including "born of the Spirit," "born of water and the Spirit" in John 3 are terms of art, limited to, or describing only, a sinner's initial conversion. "Initial [though permanent] salvation." Regeneration. Which takes place thru Christ's resurrection, 1 Pet 1:3. – Walter S May 19 '20 at 21:56
  • Rom 8:30 and 1 Peter 1:21 align in the glory that comes at this rebirth - for both Jesus and believers. Obviously Jesus didn't need to be called, justified etc but he was foreknown like his brethren. I think 'art' is missing the intended meaning. Rebirth applies to believers equally as to Jesus according to Rom 8:29 – user48152 May 19 '20 at 22:25
  • SO... it appears that our rebirth happens at a resurrection - like Jesus' did - NOT at a baptism which is only a 'deposit' in this life. There's another Q there that explores this further. – user48152 May 19 '20 at 23:29
  • The two Scriptural births you describe intersect: the recipients of Peter's letter were regenerated through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Begotten through the begetting of Jesus Christ from the dead. Jn 1:13; Ac 13:33; Heb 1:5; 5:5; Psa 2:7; 1 Pet 1:3. That's when He got many brothers. Jn 20:17; Heb 3:1. (Irrevocably.) Although people experience Him then in time. Gal 1:15-16; 1 Cor 15:8. And although Christ's believers become full sons, or fully become sons later, when transfigured, glorified. Rm 8:14-39. (Resurrection's compared to waking up, to birth...) – Walter S May 19 '20 at 23:30
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Using the KJV, John 3:5-8 clears this matter up:

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (My emphasis)

Gen 1:27-28: Man was "created" spirit like God, (after God's likeness) complex male and female, (complex in God's image). God named that very complex spirit-man "Adam." (Gen 5:1-2) Then, Adam was also "formed" flesh and "made" a living soul before Eve ever existed as shown in 1 Ti 2:13:

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Therefore, Adam was responsible for his sin. It was Adam who was given the commandment to not eat of the fruit of the tree of the KoGaE, not EVE. Eve did not exist at that time. Man's spirit died in the day he sinned. Adam's offspring was born in Adam's own image and after his own likeness--with a dead spirit--as shown in Gen 5:3:

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: (My emphasis)

Eve was given the promise of the "seed of the woman" who would defeat the "seed of the serpent".

John 1:1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

That WORD was made flesh without being the offspring of man, but rather the offspring of the Spirit of God through the woman who was promised the seed of deliverance. Adam was bypassed in the birth of Jesus. The birth of that WORD, Jesus, was clearly born of the Spirit through the conception of the woman as shown in Luke 1:35.

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

In John 6:63, that WORD was still living spirit:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus has never had (or been) a dead spirit. There is no need for Jesus, the very WORD of God, to be "born again." He has always been "living spirit" because His words are life.

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  • no ones thinks Jesus was a dead spirit - he was a dead man because he was a man. Jesus didn't exist until he was born - by the word made flesh , the seed of the woman as you said. Mary didn't birth a spirit. Anymore than Elizabeth did, and JtB was filled with spirit from the womb! John 6:63 Jesus isn't the spirit - he was later 2 Cor 3:17 - After he was raised. – user48152 May 26 '20 at 1:08
  • Is not God a Spirit? (John 4:24) Was not the WORD, God? (John 1:1) The WORD was spirit before Abraham was (John 8:58), and before Adam was (Isa 48:16. Was not the one who spoke in Gen 1:3 the WORD of God? Is not the WORD--God the Spirit--a Spirit? (John 6:63) Where is your proof that the Lord, who IS that Spirit wherein the veil is taken away, was not in eternity past, present, and future, eternal Spirit? How could the WORD of God who is placed in the operating capacity of "SPEAKER" of God, before and after being manifest in the flesh, never have always been God who is Spirit? (1 Ti 3:16). – Bill Porter May 27 '20 at 21:34
  • thx Bill, the construct of the word being a 'person' is not biblical. God spoke in Gen and everywhere else. Did the Jews, the Israelites know of this 'spirit the word'? God spoke on Mt Sinai etc just as He spoke to Jesus at his baptism. Are you suggesting the word was speaking to the word there? – user48152 May 27 '20 at 21:47
  • The prophets never saw God., but Heb 1:1-2 says: "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" John 12:50 says, " And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. If Jesus' words are Spirit, and if God is a Spirit, and if Jesus and the Father are One, Do we dare attempt to kick Jesus out of the Spirit-Godhead? – Bill Porter May 28 '20 at 14:01
  • 'Jesus and the Father are one' must be juxtaposed with John 17:11,22 . You can leave that 'one substance' thing at the door. Now Jesus has taken his place in the 'Godhead' as he sits with the Father. Prior to birth he was foreknown only. – user48152 May 28 '20 at 21:28
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John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Regeneration is given as a remedy for an impediment to entering heaven - something which Jesus, the remover of said impediment, clearly didn't have.

Among others, one might use two facts to prove this.

1) Jesus was God in the flesh: John 1:1, 14. It is metaphysically impossible that God could sin, because, among other things, sin is a crime against God primarily, and only against others or against oneself secondarily.

2) Jesus came to be the new Adam. Beginning with a new Adam who is just in the same condition as Adam and his progeny makes no sense, otherwise everyone could just 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps,' without need for a Savior. Which is the heresy called Pelagianism. (Mary was traditionally viewed by patristic exegetes as the new Eve, hence the immaculate conception and honoring Mary is the matriarch of matriarchs among the saints also).

Jesus being the "firstborn" makes reference only to birth. Not to the state or condition of that birth. Even then, it is a term signifying prominence only.

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  • ty. If Jesus cant sin, he can't be tempted... Jesus is not doing a 'bootstraps' thing, He had his own will and submitted to the Father in all things. No it's not prominence - he was firstborn to a new life that had no death. – user48152 May 25 '20 at 22:54
  • I wasn't talking about Jesus when I note the necessity of being born again for anyone who is not the new Adam himself, namely Christ. Yes, Christ submitted his will to the divine will perfectly. – Sola Gratia May 26 '20 at 16:34
  • Where does "God in the flesh" appear in the scriptures. God is a spirit. God does not change from spirit to flesh. God is not a man. – user35499 Jun 26 '20 at 1:05
  • I didn't claim the words "God in the flesh" appeared in the Bible, nor do I accept this artificial requirement as the standard of what is taught in the Bible. I'm not here to debate doctrine here. John's Gospel says clearly that the Logos who is God became flesh. – Sola Gratia Jun 27 '20 at 17:25

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