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Hebrews 5:7 (DRB):

Who in the days of his flesh, with a strong cry and tears, offering up prayers and supplications to him that was able to save him from death, was heard for his reverence.

The question is so easy:

  • Did God already save Jesus from death?, Because of Jesus' reverence (godliness- godly fear - piety - reverent submission) he didn't suffer death at all?, Or saving Jesus from death because of his godliness means his resurrection?
  • Did Jesus suffer death or not?

The content of the verse is so clear: God saved Jesus because of his piety.

There are two questions near to my question on SE, Look here: In what way was Jesus' prayer heard (Hebrews 5:7)

But my question is about: Did He suffer death or not?, Where the content of the verse is clear that He had been saved from death.

The clear meaning in Hebrews 5:7,8 seems to contradict the clear meaning in other sites in the Bible that declare death of Jesus, thus we want to solve the contradiction also.

Thus, we want to prove first that Hebrews 5:7, means death of Jesus. If not, i.e: He hadn't died, then, we want to solve the contradiction between Hebrews 5:7,8 and other verses in the Bible contradicting them.

Thank you.

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  • Doesn't the very next verse (5:8) already answer that question ? – Lucian May 10 '20 at 0:26
  • @Lucian the verse Hebrews 5:7 is so clear: Jesus was saved from death. How verse 8 clarify verse 7 which is already clear!!. Verse 8: Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; KJV. Verses 7,8 are so clear; He suffered great pain but not death. – salah May 10 '20 at 1:01
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    Why would you think that the suffering in question excludes the death, which is its logical fulfillment and completion ? (Hebrews 2:9; Acts 17:3). – Lucian May 10 '20 at 12:28
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    The words "but not death" are absent from the (con)text at hand, whether immediate or otherwise. To ascertain whether the text's view of (Christ's) suffering includes or excludes death, one must find other instances within the text, where the same word or idea occurs. One such instance is in 2:9, as mentioned earlier. So, unless you doubt the authenticity of 2:9, or can otherwise explain how someone can resurrect without formerly dying, it is not entirely clear why we are even having this discussion in the first place. – Lucian May 10 '20 at 13:48
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    @salah Then you should edit your question to make that more clear IMO. As phrased now, it looks like you're literally asking whether Christ died or not. I think from the NT that is very clear. Then the remaining task, as you've stated it in your most recent comment, is to determine how to interpret Hebrews 5:7 since its bare words without further context could be interpreted in such a way as to provide a seeming contradiction. – duckmayr May 10 '20 at 16:44
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Georg Lünemann answers your question:1

enter image description here

In the context of humans alone, if we heard the expression “he saved him from death,” then normally we would understand that person A prevented person B from dying, so that person B never experienced death.

But, we need to realize that the context here involves God and a human, and as such, as Lünemann notes, “he saved him from death” can have two meanings. Either, God saved Jesus from dying, or, as is the actual case, Jesus died, but God saved Jesus from death, so that, not only did God raise Jesus from the dead, but He also prevented Jesus’ body from experiencing decay while it lie in the sepulcher.

The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews unambiguously declares elsewhere that the Lord Jesus Christ had died.4

How was the prayer of the Lord Jesus answered (cf. KJV: “and was heard in that he feared”)?

The Lord Jesus Christ was “delivered5 by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God.”6 Nevertheless, God the Father raised him from the dead, loosing the cords of death that had held him,7

24 whom God raised up, having loosed the cords8 of death, because it was not possible that he should be held by it.

Indeed, God even prevented the body of the Lord Jesus Christ from experiencing decay (corruption).9


Footnotes
1 p. 181 (German); p. 509–510 (English)
2 Heb. 2:9, 9:26, 9:28, 10:10, 10:12, 13:20
3 cf. Luke 22:42
4 see footnote 2
5 to his enemies
6 Acts 2:23
7 Acts 2:24
8 according to the Hebrew text of Psa. 116:3
9 Psa. 16:10; Acts 2:27, 13:35
References
Huther, Johann Eduard; Lünemann, Georg Konrad Gottlieb. Critical and Exegetical Handbook to the Epistles to Timothy and Titus, and to the Epistle to the Hebrews. Trans. Hunter, David; Evans, Maurice J. New York: Funk, 1885.

Lünemann, Georg Konrad Gottlieb. Kritisch exegetischer Kommentar über das Neue Testament, Dreizehnte Abtheilung, Kritisch exegetisches Handbuch über den Hebräerbrief. 4th ed. Vol. 13. Göttingen: Vandenboeck and Ruprecht, 1878.
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  • do you mean that accepting his prayers was in his resurrection? – salah May 10 '20 at 7:20
  • @Dottard the point that Jesus and the bible make is that he did not die otherwise he would be spiritualised and therefore does not need to eat and would not have any flesh and the only sign he gave was Jonah. If Trinity would be asking himself to save himself. – another theory May 10 '20 at 12:26
  • Yes Salah. Christ petitioned and supplicated Him who was able to resurrect Him (save Him out of death). What petition? "If this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done." Was He heard (was it done)? Yes. Christ was crucified and resurrected. Why? To become to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, Heb 5:9-10. – Walter S May 12 '20 at 22:32
  • This answer ignores the context of, ‘in the days of his flesh’ - Speaking of his whole life, not the last few days or hours. – user48152 Jun 26 at 7:12
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That is one of the great mysteries of Jesus' death - The Father could save Jesus, and Jesus specifically asked to be excused but was not, Matt 26:39, 42.

as to whether Jesus actually died or not, there is abundant evidence that Jesus actually died. Here is a sample.

There are several records that Jesus' death would happen, ie, was predicted.

  • Matt 16:21 - and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
  • Matt 17:23 - They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.
  • Matt 20:19 - and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!
  • Mark 9:31 - They will kill him, but on the third day he will come back to life.
  • Mark 10:34 - who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise.
  • Luke 18:33 - they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.
  • Luke 9:22 - The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

The eye-witness accounts of Jesus' death:

  • Matt 27:50 - "... Jesus … yielded up the/his spirit", or, he "breathed his last". That is, he stopped breathing and died. The guarding centurion also observed the death, v51. Note that the Roman soldiers were professional killers.
  • Mark 15:37 - " … Jesus … expired". That is, He stopped breathing and died. The guarding centurion also observed the death, v38.
  • Mark 15:44 - When Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus, Pilate was surprised he was already dead, so he asked a centurion to check that Jesus was dead. The centurion confirmed it so Pilate released the body to Joseph. A Roman centurion is a trained killer and an expert in telling if someone is dead.
  • Luke 23:46 - " … expired". That is, He stopped breathing and died. The guarding centurion also observed the death, v47.
  • John 19:30 - "He [Jesus] said, 'It is finished!' And he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." That is, He stopped breathing and died.
  • John 19:33 - the soldiers did not break Jesus' legs because he was already dead. (Roman soldiers were trained killers and knew how to tell if someone was alive or dead!)
  • John 19:34 - just to be absolutely sure, one Roman soldier took a spear and pierced his side - this would have been a trust of the spear up under the rub cage into the heart. If Jesus were not dead before he would certainly have been dead afterward. As a result, a mixture of blood and water emerged suggesting that he really was dead indeed!
  • John 19:35 - the apostle John says he witnessed these things personally and testifies that these facts are correct.

Some have suggested that there were no disciples and very few people who actually saw the death of Jesus but that is not true. All Roman crucifixions were done to achieve two objectives - to completely humiliate the victim and to provide some cheap ghoulish entertainment for the masses - thus all crucifixions were attended by crowds (Luke 23:48). It is also said that all the disciples deserted him in the garden of Gethsemane (Matt 26:56) but Peter (and some others) followed at a distance to observe the trials ((Matt 26:58).

Specifically, we know that the following named people observed the death of Jesus:

  • Simon of Cyrene, another disciple, who carried the cross Matt 27:32, Luke 23:26.
  • Joseph of Arimathea who asked Pilate for the body Luke 23:50-53.
  • Nicodemus who visited Jesus by night John 19:39
  • Cleopas and his friend (Luke 24:13-21) who were travelling to Emmaus on Sunday.
  • Many women and others associated with Jesus (Luke 23:49) such as Mary the mother of Jesus, Mary's sister Martha, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, Salome, Mary the wife of Cleopas, Matt 27:55, 56, Mark 15:40, John 19:25. This also included (at least) John as recorded in John 19:26, 27.
  • It is also recorded that many of these same people accompanied the dead body to the tomb to see where it was laid so that could embalm the body on Sunday morning. Matt 27:61, 28:1, Mark 15:47, 16:1, Luke 23:55, 24:10, John 20:1.
  • One of the soldiers, specifically a centurion observed Jesus' death and was so moved that he gave praise to the Jewish God of heaven Matt 27:54, Luke 23:47. Another pierced him with a spear to ensure His death and a soldier also witnessed the fact to Pilate Mark 15:44, 45.
  • Many of the Jewish leaders, including the chief priests, observed the crucifixion and death to ensure that Jesus died and that their troublesome citizen was finally disposed of. Matt 27:41-43, Mark 15:31

There are numerous other passages that discuss the death of Jesus.

  • Luke 24:46 - This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day
  • 1 Cor 15:3, 4 - … that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day
  • Acts 10:40 - God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.
  • Acts 13:30 - But God raised him up from the dead the third day

There is much evidence that Jesus actually died, not only from his friends the disciples but from Roman soldiers as well; that is, both sympathetic and antagonistic witnesses. This is very compelling and voluminous evidence.

There is also some important indirect evidence that Jesus was known by everyone in Jerusalem, including the chief priests and Roman authorities, to have died.

  • The chief priests were worried that the disciples would come to try and steal the dead body so they posted a Roman guard to protect it, and on the Sabbath as well!! Matt 27:62-66.
  • The Roman soldiers guarding the tomb witness the resurrection but the chief priests were so embarrassed by this that bribed the soldiers to say (in spite of dire consequences for soldiers sleeping on duty) that the (dead) body of Jesus was stolen while they slept!! Matt 28:11-15. This possibly even involved some bribes for Pilate (v14).
  • Despite the report of some, many of the disciples could not believe that Jesus was raised for the dead and were very frightened; Luke 24:36-43, John 20:11, 19, 20, 24- 29.

In fact, the doctrine of Jesus’ humanity is so important that anyone who denies it is called antichrist! 1 John 4:3, 2 John 7.

The fact that the Bible so emphatically declares Jesus’ humanity does not diminish His divinity.

Lastly, there is now several reputable reports of the medical facts about Jesus' death in places like: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/403315

Back to Heb 5:7 which says: During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Note that Jesus actually asked to be excused from the great sacrifice (Matt 26:39) three times but His request was denied. St Paul also prayed to be released from his "thorn in the flesh" three times as well but his request was also denied (2 Cor 12:7-9). Many take courage from these stories because if Paul and Jesus had their prayer requests denied (at least on these occasions) then when God denies me something, I am keeping good company!

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  • 1
    Evidence of Jesus - Jesus says a resurrected body is spiritualised - therefore no need for the tomb to be moved, no need to eat, no need to say touch me I’m flesh and many more. In particular the only sign given by Jesus - like Johan - who was alive for 3 days. Not what other people said but Jesus. Why ask to be saved if he is part of the trinity asking himself to save himself. – another theory May 9 '20 at 22:48
  • I am not sure I understand the import of your comment. Suffice to say, Jesus gave evidence of His physicality by requesting something to eat Luke 24:42 – Dottard May 9 '20 at 23:34
  • @Dottard how to solve contradiction of Jesus death with this verse (Hebrews 5:7)? – salah May 10 '20 at 0:18
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    @Dottard was heard for his reverence=was saved from death for his reverence!!. – salah May 10 '20 at 0:52
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    That is NOT what the text says - look carefully. It only says, "offering up prayers and supplications to him that was able to save him from death" Jesus was heard but the prayer to be excused was denied. – Dottard May 10 '20 at 1:12
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The Father was able to save him. Jesus himself had the power and the authority to “Let this cup pass.” because “I could call and my father would send 12 legions of angels.” Had he chosen not to go through with the cross, all he had to do is simply request of the Father and the Father would have responded by sending 72,000 angels to lay waste to humanity. Yet, he subjected himself to the will of the Father and chose the cross.

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Maybe my answer is considered off-topic on this site as I am here interpreting the Bible viewed through the Quran, and the Quran viewed through the Bible.

There is an enigmatic verse in the Qur'an (4:157), saying

And for their (the Jews) saying, “We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.” In fact, they did not kill and crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they did. Indeed, those who differ about him are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it, except the following of assumptions. Certainly, they did not kill him.

This verse is often read alone in Islam without knowledge or acceptance of the Gospel, hence interpreted as if Jesus (p.b.u.h.) was not put to the cross. To my interpretation it says that the Jews did not succeed to put him to death on the cross but he appeared to be dead. Before men, it looked like he died but God knew that he was living.

In this sense, the report that Jesus died and God arose him on the third day corresponds to the perspective observed from earth, whereas the version that God saved him from death is the view of God, the All-Knowing.

Maybe, this is also expressed in this epistle by the unknown author.

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  • The various Islamic views on Jesus' death all seem to agree at least on one point: Jesus did not really die. There is more than a suspicion of docetism in surah 4:157. I wonder if it is a concidence that the Gospel of Thomas is "composed of 114 sayings attributed to Jesus". 114, like the number of surahs in the Quran ... – Miguel de Servet Jun 26 at 9:06
  • Are you affirming that, acccording to mainline Islam, Jesus truly died? Careful ... – Miguel de Servet Jun 26 at 17:26
  • @MigueldeServet Islam does not agree the status of a prophet to Mani. The Quranic message is completely in the line of the Judaic and Christian tradition. I didn't know that the number of Surat coincides with the number of logia in the Gospel accorded to Thomas (a.s.). However, this hadith collection precedes Mani by more than a century and is not Manichaian. Maybe you confuse it with the Infancy Gospel also attributed to Thomas. – Jeschu Jun 26 at 17:28
  • @MigueldeServet No. I personally believe that Jesus did not really die. This is the message of the Quran and all Muslims agree to it. My opinion that Jesus was really crucified and that the observations described in the Gospels are true is my personal opinion that is not shared by traditional Islam – Jeschu Jun 26 at 18:13
  • You seem to suffer from cognitive dissonance ... – Miguel de Servet Jun 26 at 18:20
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There is considerable conflict in this question, a few examples show that this is nto clear cut;

“Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear." (Hebrews 5:7)

Father, I thank thee that thou heardest me. And I knew that thou hearest me always." (John 11:41-42).

Psalm 20:6 6Now I know that the LORD saves His anointed; He answers him from His holy heaven with the saving power of His right hand. “O you who lift me up from the gates of death” (Psalms 9:13)

"When evil-doers came upon me to eat up my flesh, Even mine adversaries and my foes, they stumbled and fell… For in the day of trouble he will keep me secretly in his pavilion: In the covert of his tabernacle will he hide me." (Psalms 27:2-5)

Psalm 21:2 - You have given him his heart’s desire, And have not withheld the request of his lips. Selah

Psalms 34:20 He protects all his bones; not one of them will be broken

PSALM 91:10-16 10 no harm will overtake you, no disaster will come near your tent.11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; 12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. 13 You will tread on the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent. 14 “Because he loves me,” says the LORD, “I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. 15 He will call on me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. 16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

Luke 24:39 - "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have".

On the basis that Jesus became a spirit or is the Holy Spirit why did an Angel need to move the Tomb stone based on below

John 20: 19-20 & 26-27 19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

Psalm 116:16 Truly I am your servant, LORD; I serve you just as my mother did; you have freed me from my chains.

Jonah (prayed and was alive) - 7 When my life was fainting away(not dead), I remembered the Lord, and my prayer came to you, into your holy temple.

Deuteronomy 21:22-23 22 If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole, 23 you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

which Jesus was really killed

Matthew 27:16-20 (NIV) 16 At that time they had a well-known prisoner whose name was Jesus[a] Barabbas. 17 So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, “Which one do you want me to release to you: Jesus Barabbas, or Jesus who is called the Messiah?” Footnotes a. Matthew 27:16 Many manuscripts do not have Jesus; also in verse 17.

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Did Jesus suffer death or not?

Yes he did - but in this verse, Jesus' earnest prayers here are not about being released from the imminent death on the cross. (While he did ask in the garden if it were possible to avoid the crucifixion, his will was realigned with the Father's) Heb 5 is not about that as we'll see.

in the days of his flesh...

This 'days' is his whole life on earth while in a fleshly, mortal body. We may understand his whole life was one of facing constant temptation - He could not once put his will before God's - not once!

Jesus was concerned that if he faltered just once and put his will before the Father's, he would be unable to be raised from the dead. He then, could no longer be the Lamb and no one else would be raised in him. The saints would stay dead too! There is only ONE NAME by which men may be saved. Acts 4:12

His whole life was about learning and being 'completed or made perfect' - both to be the high priest and to learn reliance on his Father for everything in order to be the perfect sacrifice! The next verses gives context for v7,

Heb 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation...

If Jesus sinned he would not be able to be raised again - ever! Death had a power over him via the chance that he might sin just once!

Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

Jesus lived in the flesh and looked forward to being alive in the spirit after his resurrection - this is when he could NOT die anymore,

1 Pet 3:18 ‘For Christ also died for sins once for all… so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit

It was this that he was praying for, as only the Father working in and through Jesus' obedience (learned through suffering) could keep him sinless until his death against the constant temptation to do HIS will instead of the Father's.

Did Jesus suffer death or not? Yes, of course he did - humanity's salvation depends on it!

Jesus' prayers were heard/acted on as it was according to the Father's will that he be the Lamb and Saviour promised long ago. Jesus remaining sinless unto death was a 'team effort' - just as it is for all humans who accept God's call over their life.

Jesus said he could do nothing of himself - remaining sinless was chief of those things, and as a man, he could not do it alone against the formidable forces constantly about him.

++++++++++++

There are some who insist this H 5:7 verse is about Jesus being 'saved from death' by his resurrection. This is nonsense for two substantial reasons.

  1. The context of - 'in the days of his flesh' cannot be ignored. This sets the foundation for what death his prayers were about. It covers the whole time he was mortal and had a fleshly life and was dependant on God for everything.
  2. Jesus already knew he would be raised - he didn't need to pray for this. There are several verses about this.

I have authority (or right) to lay it down, and I have authority (or right) to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father. John 10:18 ^

...it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. Acts 2:24

These two verses alone are testament to the realty of Jesus' ultimate reliance on God to raise him after the crucifixion. His fight to remain sinless through the power of God's spirit in him and his unswerving trust in and humble obedience to God is about what he needed to accomplish to finish the mission on the cross - hence his earnest prayers.

^ the 'right' is explained here

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  • Are you saying Jesus does not have a physical after being raised from the dead? – Revelation Lad Aug 7 '20 at 2:05
  • if you mean 'physical body', no, I am not. He died with a flesh body that had breathe of life, was raised with a body made alive by spirit - not able to die again. – user48152 Aug 7 '20 at 2:21
  • user48152 you point Rom:6:9 & 1 Pet: 3:18 agreed, however, why does he need to eat or hide from the guards etc...if he died and became a spirit? – another theory Aug 11 '20 at 12:37
  • you misunderstand 'spirit' in this context. He said he had a body to the disciples. 'touch me, see my hands, etc. He was not alive by breathe anymore but spirit. He is human - just like us, we will have a 'new' body too, as he now does. 1 Cor 15 explains. Every NT reference is about Jesus being a man.He CAN eat - doesn't NEED to eat. Don't know what you mean ..hide from guards? – user48152 Aug 11 '20 at 13:19
  • Jesus did not have the "right" to "lay his life down and to take it back". In the context of John 10:18, ἐξουσία means neither "authority" nor "right", but only power: Jesus had power on his own life only inasmuch as, keeping himself sinless, and therefore suitable for sacrifice,he could expect the Father to raise him from the dead. If you are interested to know more, see here – Miguel de Servet Jun 26 at 8:49
-1

It's all in the verb εἰσακούω

To answer the Question, we have to examine what is the meaning of "[Jesus] was heard for his reverence" (εἰσακουσθεὶς ἀπὸ τῆς εὐλαβείας).

Within this phrase, the critical word is the verbal form εἰσακουσθεὶς (Aorist Participle Passive - Nominative Masculine Singular - lit. "having been heard").

The verbal form εἰσακουσθεὶς is from εἰσακούω (G1522 - eisakouō), which (as can be also see in the [LSJ][2] - for some reason it is necessary to copy and paste the link [2]) has two essential meanings:

  1. hear, so as to grant a request.
  2. simply hear, listen

Loking at the way eisakouō is used in the other instances of the NT, we have:

  • Mat 6:7: meaning 1. but negatively applied to the heathens who hope their requests will be granted because of their many words.
  • Luk 1:13: meaning 1. - the angel Gabriel tells Zachariah that his and his wife's prayers for a child have been granted, at last.
  • Act 10:31: meaning 1. - Cornelius explains to Peter that, an angel told him that, with his arrival from Acco, his own prayer has been granted.
  • 1Co 14:21: meaning 2.

Let's look again at Hebrews 5:7

The verse itself is not sufficient to decide whether Jesus "was heard" according to meaning 1. or 2. But Jesus died, so, the only sense in which God, the Father Almighty, yielded to Jesus' prayer was by rasing his from the dead.

[2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dei)sakou%2Fw

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  • This answer ignores the context of, ‘in the days of his flesh’ - Speaking of his whole life, not the last few days or hours as you have focussed on. – user48152 Jun 26 at 7:14
  • @user48152 Only in "the last few days" did Jesus confront death as a concrete prospect. Anyway, what are you trying to say? – Miguel de Servet Jun 26 at 7:54
  • rubbish - he knew for a very long time i.e. the days of his flesh what he was called to do and be. This answer theme (as some others also do) avoids the obvious connection with his mortality and focusses on his resurrection instead - which it is not about. Your answer has skirted around the truth to maintain the dogma. – user48152 Jun 26 at 8:03
  • @user48152 First, rubbish to you. Second, see my comment appended to your Answer. – Miguel de Servet Jun 26 at 8:31

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