John 10:27-30 & Hebrews 6:4-6 -Theological dilemma, must we choose one or the other or can it be resolved? [closed]

Question

These two passages serve respectably as the major textual support for issue of perseverance of saints,namely,

"Truly saved, saved always vs "one can lose one's salvation."

What the Bible says about,

Can true Christians loss their salvation?

How can we know if we are truly born again Christian?

John 10:27-30 (ESV) "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Hebrews 6:4-6(ESV)** For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Answer 1

There is no contradiction nor dilemma here. John 10:28 contains the simple statement that: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." That is, it is impossible for someone (other than the person themselves) to break the saving relationship with Jesus.

However, this does not exclude the possibility that the person could decide to break the relationship with Jesus, as many have. See Could a written name in the book of Life be blot out (erased)? This is why it is so essential to implement much of the advice of the NT such as:

• Let us fix our eyes on Jesus ... Heb 12:2
• “… but he that endures to the end shall be saved.” Matt 10:22, 24:13, Mark 13:13.
• “We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.” Heb 3:14
• “And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.” (Heb 3:6)
• “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.” (Col 1:22, 23)
• “Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test [= stood firm], that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.” (James 1:12)
• “Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you.” (1 Cor 15:58),
• “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day …” (2 Tim 4:7, 8),
• “being strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might” (Eph 6:10)
• “So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” 2 Thess 2:15
• “To the overcomer I [Jesus] will give …” (Rev 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 11, 12, 21)
• “But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.” (James 1:25)
• “Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.” (Gal 6:9)

See also 2 Peter 1:5-7. Note the numerous keys to understanding this idea as found in Eph 6:10 – “be strong in the Lord and in His might power”. By ourselves we can do nothing (John 15:4, 5).

Answer 2

Who is a true Christian, and who is a false, is something known only to God. No one possesses certain knowledge of his own fate, much less those of others. As St. Paul said:

1 Corinthians 4:4 For I am not aware of anything against me, but I am not thereby justified: my judge is the Lord.

Scripture only ever promises that those who persevere to the end shall be saved (no one has infallible knowledge of the future).

Therefore, who is a true Christian, and who is a false, is something known only at the judgement, because no one infallibly knows his own end, or those of others:

Matthew 24:12-13 And because of abounding lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold: but whoever endures to the end shall be saved.

When Jesus talks of His sheep as the elect, He refers to the objective number of the elect, a number not specified in Scripture or in the individual themselves. He is authoritatively teaching on what will of a certainty happen to those he will choose, has chosen, is choosing (all are theologically synonymous), not what will happen to all Christians who come to him but do not persevere - the so-called 'chain' of Romans 8:29-30 is a closed system, describing what happens to those he foreknew are saved, not what happens to all who are called - for many are called to the Feast of the Lamb, but not all who are called are ultimately chosen, nor found worthy:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen [eklektos].

Cf. Mt. 22:2; Rev. 19:6-9.

So-called 'assurance of salvation' is a doctrine not seen in Scripture (not read in) until the 16th century.

Answer 3

In John 10, the idea presented is that Jesus secures and protects his sheep, but this is conditional. 27-28. Jesus says the conditions of eternal life are two-fold; one must hear and follow. These are non-negotiable actions required of the believer. These are the ones whom Jesus says he will acknowledge.

“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.”

“THEY will have eternal life” and “They shall never perish." The implication to the Jews to whom he was simply was that because they refused to hear his voice, they did not have eternal life.

“No one will snatch them out of My hand.” and “No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” The implication is one of divine protection. If you do not hear and follow, you do not have the Lord's protection.

Hebrews 6 The writer describes both the prior and latter states of those who had fallen away.

A. Their prior state – These had:

Been enlightened.

Had tasted the heavenly gift. (The word for tasted is γευσαμένους which means to experience. This is the same word that is used in 2:9 saying, Jesus “tasted” death for everyone. This is not a mere limited sampling, this is an embracing of the full experience.

Been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. These has received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who serves as the Christian's seal of divine ownership.

Tasted the good word of God.

B. Present state – They have “fallen away.” From what then have they fallen?

An enlightened state.

The experience of the heavenly gift.

The partaking or sharing of the Holy Spirit.

The good word of God. 5. They have crucified Christ all over again. Like those of 10:26-31, these have “trampled under foot the Son of God and regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS sanctified” (past tense). In other words these now regard the blood that had once sanctified them as nothing more than the proverbial hog slaughtered on the altar.

C. The impossible dilemma - It is now impossible to renew them again to repentance. Why? Because they have fallen away from the very thing that brought them to repentance in the first place which was the word of God. It is now impossible to restore them to repentance. One cannot be REnewed AGAIN to a state they have never occupied. Thus, having once been saved and then having fallen away, they cannot be brought back because they will no longer repent. This is of course representing the extreme case.

D. Their fate. Like the ground that yields thistles and thorns, they are cursed and they end up being burned. Just like those of 10:26-31, whose fate is to fall into the hands of a vengeful God who says, “I will repay.” The parabolic illustration come out of Matthew 13:20-21, Mark 4:16-17, and Luke 8:13. They are worthless to the purposes of God and God discards them.

The writer is not saying they claimed to have tasted, but presents a statement of fact – “They had tasted.” They had returned to the law. These had previously left the law in response to the gospel. Now, they are rejecting the cross and going back to the law. This is the foundation they were “laying again.”

This is not a question. There is no “if” in the Greek. It simply says, παραπεσόντας – literally “having fallen away.” This is a statement of fact based on actual cases, not a what if scenario. This is an aorist, passive, accusative verb. They had fallen away at some time in the past and that condition continues. They are still fallen away.

Under the law, sin was not forgiven based on those sacrifices, but based on what those sacrifices represented – the cross. Leviticus chapters 4 and 5 show us that they were indeed forgiven under the law but, it was not by the law. Even David understood this. “How blessed is the man whose transgression is forgiven, whose sins are covered...to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,” Psalms 32:1-2. He also knew those sacrifices were not the avenue through which forgiveness came. “Thou dost not delight in sacrifice or I would bring it.” Psalms 51:1-2.

The inability to renew again is not linked to a supposition of "IF" they were to fall away. The impossibility is linked to the fact that after having been saved they have rejected the cross, not the old sacrifices, and in so doing had shamed Christ openly.

The writer does not say they cannot be saved again. He says that cannot be brought back to repentance again. This certainly renders them unable to remain saved since there is no longer repentance. These had once been in a saved relationship. Now that relationship has been severed; not by Christ but by them.

He is not comparing the crucifying of Christ again to the repetitious offering of O.T. sacrifice. Those who had rejected and fallen away were considering Christ worthy of the crucifixion. They were rejecting him and his sacrifice. Like those of 10:29, they were considering the blood of Christ “BY WHICH THEY HADBEEN SANCTIFIED” an unclean thing, and had insulted the Spirit of grace.

The writer's point is that these had been sanctified – made holy – something that all of the sacrifices of the O.T. combined could never do. In verse 29, he even draws a contrast between the one's of whom he is speaking and those who died under the law for rejecting Moses. They rejected the blood after having been cleansed by it are now worthy of greater punishment than those who were under the Law. Verse 30 shows their fate.

Answer 4

This dilemma can be solved via exegesis.

HEB 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The ‘repentance’ is made impossible by 2 conditions -crucifying afresh, and putting to open shame. The original Greek participles (actions) used in these two conditions are both ‘present active’. That is, repentance is impossible [only] while those two conditions are present - but, once they’re not, then repentance is no longer impossible, as the conditions for repentance to be ‘impossible’ are no longer present. That is, the impossibility of repentance is not a once, then forever un-changeable condition.

Now we need to establish what is ‘lost’ while those two conditions are present. The assumption by many is that is is referencing salvation, but this is clearly not the case. What is lost is ‘inheriting the promises’ or in other words ‘progressing’ into these. Now let’s look at the basis for this claim.

The book of Hebrews is all about progressing, leaving behind what was.

Paul(?) (I will continue as if Paul wrote Hebrews.) starting back in chapter 3 links these Hebrews chapters to the the children of Israel in the wilderness. These people came out of Egypt’, which symbolises ‘the world’.

HEB 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses..
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

And, we also see that from the end of the previous chapter 5, through the start of chapter 6, that Paul is clearly outlining the perils of not progressing ‘into’ the promises of God. So this is the context, and Paul is using the ‘picture’ of the wilderness experience to ‘teach’ this. When was this, that is, missing out on an inheritance, ‘mirrored’ - when the Israelites were at the border of the promised land.

NUMBERS 14:22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;..
23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

The Israelites had ‘tasted’ of God, been ‘enlightened’ and partaken of Gods goodness, witnessed the Miracles, the Red Sea crossing, water made sweet, Manna, etc. but here, at the border, via the report of the spies, had fallen away. They wanted to go back. And, once they decided and proclaimed this, it became impossible to bring them to back repentance - they died in the wilderness. We know this ‘linking’ of Numbers chapter 14 to Hebrews 6 is exegesis, because Hebrews 6 flows from the previous chapters which also use the same wilderness experience.

Result? They missed out on the promised land, they missed out on inheriting the promises! But, importantly, they were still Gods children - that could not be taken from them. But, the promises where.

And we know, via exegesis, that the context of this chapter in Hebrews is on the perils of not progressing, because that is the context of the previous verses. (And, the end of the previous chapter.) And why didn’t the Israelites progress? Because they fell away - after they’d been ‘enlightened’.

So you have no dilemma - this passage in Hebrews is not talking about salvation, at all. And it does not contradict nor challenge John 10, nor several other passages that support John 10. Those several passages that clearly say salvation is secure.

Hebrews 6 is stating the perils of not progressing. That if you ‘fall away’ by listening and accepting ‘wrong’ teaching, (as per listening to the 10 spies.) then inheriting the promises will be impossible. You will ‘stay where you are’, just as we saw in the wilderness. And that is what Paul was saying, here, and in several other letters he wrote - listening to wrong teaching, or wanting ‘to go back’ (in this case, to Judaism.) will make inheriting the promises impossible.

Answer 5

The contradiction is not real but only apparent.

Regard this: Paul, who not only became a Christian, but was deigned worthy of this calling by a special revelation of Lord on the way to Damascus (Acts 22:6-21), and moreover whose prayers and attachment to God were so intimate that he received direct revelations from Him (I will not bring examples, for they are numerous), now the same great Paul urges all believers, all Christians to work their salvation "in fear and tremble" (Philippians 2:12), and even the advanced Christians who think that they stand firmly in faith, to take a special heed, lest they fall (1 Cor. 10:12). All these shows clearly that freedom of man remains frighteningly real before or after conversion, and this freedom can freely be abused by a Christian. Is it in principle possible that a Christian abuses this freedom to the limit of losing salvation? Of course, yes! - for otherwise freedom will not be a freedom.

Moreover, even Lord and the Judge of the Living and Dead, Jesus Christ, says that there will be Christians, miracle-workers in His Name, who will be sure that they are in the flock of the saved (that is to say, it is impossible that they are not Christians), but will be surprised in a bad way to know that due to their misdeeds and mercilessness they have deprived themselves of salvation (Matthew 7:23). And the five foolish maidens (in Matthew 25:1-13), by the logic of this parable, are definitely Christians, but the parable speaks of them of losing their salvation through idleness.

Thus, a Christian can perish through abuse of freedom and unrepented sinning.

Now, does Paul in his word "impossible" in Hebrews 4:4-6 mean that a good Christian who apostatises from Christ is totally deprived of a perspective of return to God and regaining divine grace through a sincere repentance? Impossible indeed that Paul could have thought or taught thus and it is a pervert interpretation and a calumny on all-merciful God if anybody thinks so. But then what? The only possible interpretation is that Paul states here that everything is already done for salvation of men by God through death and resurrection of His Son, so that if this is not utilised by man, then nothing can save him, no greater light than that that has already enlightened him, no greater Savior than He who already was crucified for him.

To give an example: if there is only one unique vaccine to be taken annually against a deadly virus and somebody disregards it after having taken it regularly in previous years, and a physician (cf. Paul) saying him: "it is impossible for somebody who was taking the vaccine of life and then ceased taking it to be brought to the good habit of vaccine-taking by any other vaccine, for the former vaccine was absolutely providing the warrant of health, and if this vaccine was disregarded by the hapless man, then how can any other vaccine ignite a greater trust in him?" Thus, this verse is not said by Paul to discourage the apostates from returning to Christ, which will be a horrible slander on Paul! On the contrary, he urges apostates to return to the very same light they were enlightened with and to the very same heavenly gifts they deprived themselves from tasting through sinning.

Conclusion

Thus, given the above it can be summarised that John 10:27-30 and Hebrews 6:4-6 do not contradict each other at all, for neither John 10:27-30 means that becoming a Christian and a follower of Christ makes one immune from sinning and apostatising from Christ for good, and nor does Hebrews 6:4-6 assert that an apostate cannot repent and return to the prior state of faithfulness and fidelity to God.

Answer 6

My goodness. You gentlefolk are so persistent...in an odd thing. Do you want Christians to [be able to] lose their salvation?

There's absolutely no conflict between the John 10 and Hebrews 6 passages you quote. It's almost childish to circle and circle around this subject. If you yourself believe, and seek to love and know Him who saved/s you, and presumably your audience here does too, then who is this preaching directed to? The unbelievers or heretics? They've not even been saved the first time. The Christians here---to warn them? In case they get any ideas or temptations of falling away? What are we/they gonna do? Try harder? Save themselves harder? Watch-out harder? This paragraph alone confirms once born anew: always born anew. It's not something that can be undone. Even by God. Nor does He want to!

That paragraph alone put the lie to the Pelagianistic teaching that a believer can be re-damned. Salvation is a free gift by grace thru faith. Even the faith is the gift of God.

Jesus answered and said to her, If you knew the gift of God and who it is who says to you, Give Me a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water. Jn 4:10.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Eph 2:8.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rm 6:23.

But Peter said to him, May your silver go with you into destruction, because you thought that you would acquire the gift of God through money. Ac 8:20.

The word "gift" means that it's free. It's a gift. It's undeserved. It's not payment, it's not payment for faithfulness. It's not payment at all. The recipient, in this case, is utterly unworthy. Like myself. Not only unworthy, but impotent. Unable. Unable to save oneself. In fact, in point of fact: even dead. Eph 2:1, 5-6. That turns on the basic definition of "gift." In any language.

And the livingness, the life, the eternal life here received, Jn 3:16 and above, is not primarily talking about a pleasant nice eternity as opposed to eternal death and separation from God. Rather it's talking about regeneration. Being born anew. The life that is a unique and different life than the one we got from our parents. The life that is actually the life (I'd almost say "blood" by way of comparison)--the life of a new family. A real family: the family of God. That one can be born into. As wonderful as adoption is, it is categorically not adoption. But birth. Regeneration. (Hence the word "sonship" is a better translation than "adoption" in all cases in the New Testament.) In other words: it is the life of God. Eph 4:18.

So, in the first instance, God is the doer. He's the regenerator. One cannot "give back" one's life. (We cannot even destroy our lives--our souls will persist forever, since God created us.) One cannot return this gift. It's impossible because it's not merely a gift like a wrapped present, nor like a ticket to ride: it's a life. Not only is it a life, it's God's own life. What makes God God is His life. And not only is it His life: it's His birthing. His begetting.

Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1:13.

It's God who wants the family. It's His idea, His purpose. It's not our idea. He even goes so far as to predestine. To predestinate. Even the choice (His choice) is before the foundation of the world. That does not mean our choice is inoperative. It only means that His will is strongest. To see an unbeliever, like Saul of Tarsus, believe and receive, and then be baptized, is to confirm to him that "brother Saul, you were chosen before the foundation of the world. Now you're not only forgiven from your sins--you're born of God, through faith in His Son Christ Jesus." If Saul "falls away---big time"---or "small time," later, he doesn't need to redo all that he did. He can't! Not because he's really fallen "this time." But because he's already saved! Eternally. That's what Hebrews 6, indeed the entire book of Hebrews with its five warnings, is saying.

Here's a non-organic Pauline example: With the Olympic race, even today, in Barcelona or wherever: if the runner falls through tripping, he or she doesn't need to try to return to the starting line, "be saved" ("have been predestinated," have been chosen, repent, re-believe, be rebaptized, all over again). Such a thing is idiotic. It's not required. Because it's not necessary. It's not necessary because it's impossible. Once born of God, always born of God.

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened...to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt (Heb 6) is not talking about being sorrowful or repentant for your sins or falling away. It's rather speaking of a sinner's first repentance. His or her initial repentance. What shames the Son of God is not that a believer fell, or that a believer apologizes----but that any believer would think (ready? Get this:)---that any believer would think that they "lost their salvation." And that they should or need to believe into Christ, receive Christ, profess faith in Christ, be saved from eternal damnation, all over again. That's the shame to Christ.

A (last?) point to be made about all this----no no, a second to last point---is that I'm reading in the Bible, and all of Christian history (and experiencing), that one cannot lose one's eternal salvation. One's eternal destiny, once one's been born from above, born of the Spirit. (That is an ontological change, a change in being.) I am not talking about gaining (or losing) salvation into the Millenial reign of Christ. I am not talking about not losing one's salvation into the Body and peace, practically and experientially, in this lifetime. I am not talking about being judged by God, whether now or in the next age (the Millenium). I am not talking about returning to one's own vomit or former lifestyle, or about temporarily being blotted out of the book of life, or being "dipped" into the lake of fire or second death. All those kinds of "perishings," "destructions," and "losing of salvations" are possible for believers. Of course. Including also passing through the last 3 1/2 years of this age, for immature or naughty believers alive then. Read Hebrews again. As severe as it, or any NT passage is, believers, the family and regenerated children of God, are in a completely different category from the unregenerate.

The "last" point is that believers can and do know and have the assurance that they're children of God. Not only objectively, factually Scripturally, but also subjectively and interiorly:

I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God...And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 1 Jn 5:13, 20.