Mark 13:32 (as well as Matthew 24:36) records Jesus saying that only the Father knows the hour of his coming. So wouldn't this imply that the holy spirit isn't omniscient if it's a person?

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    Exactly the same would apply to Jesus as well? In any case, such a question is better in Christianity Stack exchange as BHSX would give the answer you are seeking. This question should be migrated to CSX.
    – user25930
    Jul 18 '19 at 1:02
  • @Mac's Musings I'll just keep it in BHSX. Jul 18 '19 at 1:15
  • @Mac's Musings If I don't get an answer here I'll post it in CSX. Jul 18 '19 at 1:25
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    @DavidthePrince - In that case, you have misunderstood the teaching of the trinity - what you have described is Not the way it is understood.
    – user25930
    Jul 18 '19 at 11:18
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    That is correct - just as per Jesus as well! Jesus did not claim to know this either. The doctrine of the Trinity is more nuanced that the simplistic picture you present.
    – user25930
    Jul 18 '19 at 21:36

The Bible also says in Revelation that Yeshua has a name known only to him (Revelation 19:12). Does the Father lack omniscience because he doesn't know the true name of Yeshua? I submit that the answer can easily be found other parts of the Bible. Taking two examples:

In the OT, Yeshua wrestles with Jacob and Jacob wins the wrestling match (Genesis 32:25). Does Yeshua therefore lack omnipotence? No, because he cripples Jacob for the rest of his life with a single touch.

Likewise, from the OT, Yeshua struggles against the prince of Persia when attempting to reach Daniel (Daniel 10:12-13). Does Yeshua therefore lack omnipotence? No, because he will defeat sin and death and suffering and the Satan and the armies of the Satan all in one instant simply by speaking (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

Simply put, the Ancient Jewish understanding of omnipotence, omniscience, etc, was that YHWH can choose (and that he has in fact chosen) to restrict himself if he wants to. The Spirit and the Son not knowing the day nor the hour therefore has nothing to do with his status as YHWH. That YHWH doesn't know Yeshua's true name also has nothing to do with his status as YHWH. All three are equally YHWH and all three are equal participants in the humility of the trinity.

(As far as any questions as to why I refer to angel of YHWH in Jacob's wrestling match as being Yeshua, it's because the angel of YHWH calls himself God in Genesis 31: 13. He is also called God multiple times. The angel of YHWH is treated as YHWH yet distinct from YHWH, is commonly mistaken for a man, and Yeshua uses the name given to the angel of YHWH by Hagar as his own name in Revelation 18 (where he calls himself "the Living One"). As far as why I call the man-figure in Daniel Yeshua, this is because the man-figure is referred to as "my lord" by Daniel, thus identifying him as YHWH, as angelic beings are never called lord nor are they treated as being YHWH in any capacity.)

  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – Caleb
    Jul 20 '19 at 8:31
  • Excellent answer - good logic and hermeutic! +1.
    – user25930
    Jul 22 '19 at 21:11
  • What in the Tanakh would possibly make you think each Mal’ak of HaShem ( מַלְאַ֨ךְ יְהֹוָ֥ה ) is the same? - The Mal'akim speak messages from HaShem as decrees which are heard in 1st-person because it is a message from HaShem. - None of the Mal’akim are HaShem Himself. Apr 15 '21 at 13:13
  • @חִידָה Several things that I've already explained above already answer this question. You've made a traditional assertion but haven't refuted anything. The first place you could have started, for example, was Hosea telling us that the name of the Angel is "YHWH of hosts". So there is a particular figure being addressed here, and he is himself YHWH of hosts. Which explains Hagar calling in God, Manoa calling him God, Jacob calling him God in his blessing, the Angel calling himself God, the plural gods language that Abraham uses twice, etc.
    – The Wayist
    Sep 6 '21 at 4:05

Q1 How do Trinitarians deal with Mark 13:32 in regards to the holy spirit?

I think this is a great question for this board as it allows us to talk hermeneutics. When it comes to biblical interpretation we want to make sure we have read it well from Genesis to Revelation to get the big picture or the entire context. After doing this we will find references to a 3-1 Godhead from Genesis to Revelation that are clear.

Secondly, when it comes to a challenging passage like the verse above we look at it within the context of the entire Bible. If the doctrine of the trinity is clear then and we interpret this verse as evidence that there is no trinity, then we know we are making a mistake in our interpretation.

So, to answer this question specifically, we deal with this passage by using the rest of the Bible (context) to help us view this passage properly.

Q2. Mark 13:32 (as well as Matthew 24:36) records Jesus saying that only the Father knows the hour of his coming. So wouldn't this imply that the holy spirit isn't omniscient if it's a person?

The view of the Trinity is that there is a 3 in 1 Godhead in which there is a unity in deity yet distinctions. God the Father and the Holy Spirit have a divine nature but do not have a human nature. Jesus has a divine and a human nature. They are still 1 God. God having information about a date in the future and choosing to withhold that information from the other members of the trinity does not mean that they are not omniscient. They may know everything (omniscience) except that which God the Father has the ability to conceal from them. With Jesus' ability to know things before they happen and know what people are thinking I wouldn't be quick to write Him or the Holy Spirit off based upon this one verse.

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    But according the doctrine of the trinity the three persons of the triune god are co-equal. So how can one co-equal god-person of the triune god limit the abilities of the other two? I should also point out that we find many instances of people knowing things before they happen and knowing what people are thinking in the Bible from various prophets as they are given that power by God. Jul 18 '19 at 16:13
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    You also said: "If the doctrine of the trinity is clear then and we interpret this verse as evidence that there is no trinity, then we know we are making a mistake in our interpretation." But that presumes that the doctrine of the trinity is clearly taught in the Bible and there are no verses which unambiguously speak of God as being triune. The most important principle of Biblical hermeneutics is to interpret the ambiguous passages in light of the unambiguous passages and Mark 13:32 unambiguously indicates that Jesus had no knowledge of a "god the holy spirit" person. Jul 18 '19 at 16:21
  • Furthermore, the definition of being omniscent is to be all-knowing and so if Jesus and the holy spirit (if as trinitarians say it's a person) don't know everything then they aren't omniscient. Jul 18 '19 at 16:24
  • The doctrine of the trinity is clear when we combine all of the various passages from Genesis to Rev. Jesus claims to be the proper name for God, I AM, the audience understands this claim and tries to stone Him. Claimed to know Abraham who died thousands of years earlier, etc. Mark 13 clear states God alone knows. This passage doesn't mention the Holy Spirit but does mention angels. We do not assume that angels are divine. It's simply that this is not a passage to teach us about the nature of God as others are.
    – Lionsden
    Jul 18 '19 at 18:39
  • The nature of God is omniscient as a whole. If Jesus knows everything there is to know except the hour I would not say this disqualifies Him as being God. Jesus submits to God the Fathers will even though He's God incarnate. This does not diminish His deity either.
    – Lionsden
    Jul 18 '19 at 18:41

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