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The idea of the LOGOS being with God and active in creation always seemed to me to be alluding to Genesis 1 where God creates the world by speaking, "Let there be..." and I think that's still valid.

However, while reading Proverbs 8:22-31 LXX I was struck by many parallels with John 1:1-3 (and other NT allusions):

Brenton LXX Proverbs 8:

22 The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works. 23 He established me † before time was in the beginning, before he made the earth: 24 even before he made the depths; before the fountains of water came forth: 25 before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me. 26 The Lord made countries and uninhabited tracks, and the highest inhabited parts of the world. 27 When he prepared the heaven, I was present with him; and when he ‡ prepared his throne upon the winds: 28 and when he strengthened the clouds above; and when he secured the fountains of the earth: 29 decree. and when he strengthened the foundations of the earth: 30 I was by him, suiting myself to him, I was that wherein he took delight; and daily I rejoiced in his presence continually. 31 For he rejoiced when he had completed the world [IE: "saw that it was good"], and rejoiced among [IE: "very good"] the children of men.

Now, the "he rejoiced when he completed the world" seems to refer to God seeing that each day of creation was made well, ala Genesis 1. But the references to being "with God" fit both Genesis 1 and Proverbs 8.

So is John 1:1-3 alluding to God's utterance being with him at creation, with the utterance being God's "fiat" (IE: "Let there be x") or both Genesis 1 and Proverbs 8:22-31 with the Messiah being both God's utterance and his wisdom personified?

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  • See also: biblegateway.com/verse/en/Sirach%201%3A4 – Ruminator Jun 7 '20 at 10:24
  • The mistake those who attempt to equate this passage in Proverbs with creation as detailed in Genesis is a reliance on English translations rather then comparing either the original Hebrew or Greek translation. "Create" is absent in both the Hebrew and Greek accounts in Genesis. The better word in English would be "made." This distinction is carefully preserved in the LXX. IOW, similarities you find between NT and Genesis and Proverbs are a result of reading the English translations which fail to preserve those differences in the MT and in the LXX. – Revelation Lad Nov 28 '20 at 18:34
  • The words translated as "let there be" and "there was" are both forms of the word γίνομαι: γενηθήτω = "let there be" and ἐγένετο is "it came to be". It is the same word used in John 1:3: blueletterbible.org/nlt/jhn/1/3/t_conc_998003 But in proverbs 8:22 it is the aorist of κτίζω, "create, establish": blueletterbible.org/ylt/pro/8/22/t_concl_636022 – Ruminator Nov 28 '20 at 19:32
  • Plato basically wrote the book on an Arian reading of the OT hundreds of years before John wrote his Arian treatise. Plato is the one who identified God's LOGOS with the Angel of the Lord. He referred to him as God's "demiurge" - the workman of Proverbs 8. John has this workman become human to be God's voice to men. Or as Hebrews, an equally Platonist manuscript, says, "God has spoken in a Son, whom he appointed heir of all [these things], through whom he made the everything": δι᾽ οὗ καὶ τοὺς αἰῶνας· ἐποίησεν. – Ruminator Nov 28 '20 at 19:40
  • Where do you find that word in the LXX of the passage in Proverbs 8:22-31? You don't. So how can there be an allusion to a word which is not present? Isn't the correct observation the writer of John purposely avoided the allusion? – Revelation Lad Nov 28 '20 at 19:56
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Yes.

John 1:1-3 derives from the rich Jewish interpretive traditions of Proverbs 8 and Genesis 1.

Psalm 33:6a is also part of this biblical background:

בִּדְבַר ה' שָׁמַיִם נַעֲשׂוּ

"With the word of the LORD the heavens were made"

Some Jewish Interpretative Background:

Wisdom in Gen 1:1 in the Targums:

For example, compare the Aramaic translations of Genesis 1:1 where God creates the heavens and the earth with his wisdom. (Compare this with Prov. 8:22 where wisdom describes or calls itself "the beginning [of His path]".)

Targum Neofiti: [ ] and ( ) indicate a variant reading

מלקדמין בחכמה [בחוכמתא] ברא (ד)ייי (ו)שכלל ית שמיא וית ארעא

"From the beginning, with wisdom, the LORD created, (and) he perfected the heavens and the earth."

Fragment Targum: { } indicates marginal gloss

בחכמה {מן לקדמין} ברא וייי ושכליל ית שמיא וית ארעא

With wisdom {from the beginning} the LORD created and perfected the heavens and the earth.

The Word of the LORD in the Targums:

Also compare the usage of memra (word) in the Targums.

For example, in the Fragment Targum, all of the speech and creative acts in Genesis 1 are from "the word of the LORD" (מימריה/מימרא דייי) or simply "His word" (מימריה). For example, here is its translation of vv. 3–5:

ואמר מימריה דייי יהי נהור והוה נהור במימריה

And the word of the LORD said "Let there be light", and there was light by His word.

וגלי קדם ייי ית נהורא ארום טב ואפריש מימריה דייי בין נהורא ובין חשוכא

And the light was revealed before the LORD that it was good and the word of the LORD separated the light from the darkness.

וקרא מימריה דייי לנהורא איממא ולחשוכא קרא ליליא והוה רמש והוה צפר והוה סדר עובד בראשית יום קדמאי

And the word of the LORD called the light "Day" and the darkness he called "Night". And there was evening and there was morning and there was the order of work in the beginning, the first day.

Targumim Sources: http://cal.huc.edu/. English translation my own.

The Wisdom of Solomon:

Further, compare how the personified wisdom of Proverbs 8 is developed and described in the Wisdom of Solomon. For example: (All texts from NRSV and LXX Rahlfs.)

Wis 9:9:

With you is wisdom, she who knows your works and was present when you made the world; she understands what is pleasing in your sight and what is right according to your commandments.

καὶ μετὰ σοῦ ἡ σοφία ἡ εἰδυῖα τὰ ἔργα σου καὶ παροῦσα, ὅτε ἐποίεις τὸν κόσμον, καὶ ἐπισταμένη τί ἀρεστὸν ἐν ὀφθαλμοῖς σου καὶ τί εὐθὲς ἐν ἐντολαῖς σου.

7:17–22:

For it is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists

αὐτὸς γάρ μοι ἔδωκεν τῶν ὄντων γνῶσιν ἀψευδῆ

22 for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me.

ἡ γὰρ πάντων τεχνῖτις ἐδίδαξέν με σοφία.

If we are to understand καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος in John 1:1 qualitatively as "And the word was (what) God (was)" then these following verses are especially relevant:

7:22–26:

There is in her a spirit that is intelligent, holy, unique, manifold, subtle, mobile, clear, unpolluted, distinct, invulnerable, loving the good, keen, irresistible, 23 beneficent, humane, steadfast, sure, free from anxiety, all-powerful, overseeing all, and penetrating through all spirits that are intelligent, pure, and altogether subtle. 24 For wisdom is more mobile than any motion; because of her pureness she pervades and penetrates all things. 25 For she is a breath of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty; therefore nothing defiled gains entrance into her. 26 For she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.

Ἔστιν γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ πνεῦμα νοερόν, ἅγιον, μονογενές, πολυμερές, λεπτόν, εὐκίνητον, τρανόν, ἀμόλυντον, σαφές, ἀπήμαντον, φιλάγαθον, ὀξύ, 23 ἀκώλυτον, ὐεργετικόν, φιλάνθρωπον, βέβαιον, ἀσφαλές, ἀμέριμνον, παντοδύναμον, πανεπίσκοπον καὶ διὰ πάντων χωροῦν πνευμάτων νοερῶν καθαρῶν λεπτοτάτων. 24 πάσης γὰρ κινήσεως κινητικώτερον σοφία, διήκει δὲ καὶ χωρεῖ διὰ πάντων διὰ τὴν καθαρότητα· 25 ἀτμὶς γάρ ἐστιν τῆς τοῦ θεοῦ δυνάμεως καὶ ἀπόρροια τῆς τοῦ παντοκράτορος δόξης εἰλικρινής· διὰ τοῦτο οὐδὲν μεμιαμμένον εἰς αὐτὴν παρεμπίπτει. 26 ἀπαύγασμα γάρ ἐστιν φωτὸς ἀϊδίου καὶ ἔσοπτρον ἀκηλίδωτον τῆς τοῦ θεοῦ ἐνεργείας καὶ εἰκὼν τῆς ἀγαθότητος αὐτοῦ.

There are also other parallels in John 1. for example:

27 Although she is but one, she can do all things, and while remaining in herself, she renews all things; in every generation she passes into holy souls and makes them friends of God, and prophets; 28 for God loves nothing so much as the person who lives with wisdom. 29 She is more beautiful than the sun, and excels every constellation of the stars. Compared with the light she is found to be superior, 30 for it is succeeded by the night, but against wisdom evil does not prevail.

μία δὲ οὖσα πάντα δύναται καὶ μένουσα ἐν αὑτῇ τὰ πάντα καινίζει καὶ κατὰ γενεὰς εἰς ψυχὰς ὁσίας μεταβαίνουσα φίλους θεοῦ καὶ προφήτας κατασκευάζει· 28 οὐθὲν γὰρ ἀγαπᾷ ὁ θεὸς εἰ μὴ τὸν σοφίᾳ συνοικοῦντα. 29 ἔστιν γὰρ αὕτη εὐπρεπεστέρα ἡλίου καὶ ὑπὲρ πᾶσαν ἄστρων θέσιν. φωτὶ συγκρινομένη εὑρίσκεται προτέρα· 30 τοῦτο μὲν γὰρ διαδέχεται νύξ, σοφίας δὲ οὐ κατισχύει κακία.

Also see interesting parallels in other Second Temple period literature such as Sirach (e.g., ch. 24) and logos in Philo's works.

The gospel writer is drawing from not only what is written in Genesis 1, Proverbs 8, and Psalm 33:6 and perhaps other biblical passages but from the rich Jewish interpretative heritage of those passages as well as from logos theologies that existed in his time. John 1:1-3 would not be a unique perspective. The uniqueness comes in v. 14 where this word becomes flesh and is identified as Jesus in v. 17.

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It should be noted that, in Prov 8:26-29, "Wisdom" is telling us that "I" was THERE when "HE" (God) did the following: made the earth, fields, highest part of the dust of the world, the heavens, set a compass upon the face of the depth, set the clouds above, strengthened the fountains of the deep, gave the sea a decree, made the foundations of the earth. From this, I see that "The Word", or "Wisdom" WAS THERE when HE (God), did all of these things, as a "spectator", watching enthusiasticly, but not as a "participant". He was "there", perhaps "along side" God, but in no place do I see where "I" was doing the creating, or even helping. In each verse listed, "I" tells us that "HE" was doing the creating.

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  • What about this?: [Pro 8:30 CSB] (30) "I was a skilled craftsman beside him. I was his delight every day, always rejoicing before him. – Ruminator Nov 23 '19 at 16:25
  • Yes, that's an example of how Prov 8:30 is hard to figure. From what I've researched, the Hebrew word "amon" rendered "master workman" or "skilled craftsman" in some translations is rendered "constantly at His side" or "as one brought up by Him" in others. It's rendered "Then I was beside Him, as a master workman" in the NASB, but interestingly, the article "as" is in italics, so it was added by the translators. Leaving the "as" out, it becomes "Then I was beside Him, a master workman", which seems to alter the intended meaning entirely, pointing now to HIM as the workman. It's not clear. – Cory Haffly Nov 24 '19 at 5:46
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Most scholars accept the Gospel begins by referencing the opening words of the Old Testament, in the beginning (ἐν ἀρχῇ)... a phrase also present in Proverbs (see discussion below). Yet a comparison of key words shows there no significant allusions to the texts of Proverbs: enter image description here

None of the words in John were used in LXX-Proverbs. In addition to distinguishing God as Lord, Proverbs describes wisdom's relationship with the Lord using different language and never states directly or indirectly that wisdom actually was God (or a god). Finally, when the Gospel writer expresses a similar idea like "with God", they avoided the language of Proverbs.

In addition, it is apparent there is little textual correspondence between the Greek translations of Genesis and Proverbs, and where Proverbs does have similar concepts as that of Genesis, the original wisdom writer chose to express them with different words (i.e. God, אלהים/יהוה, made or create, קנה/ברא, work, מפעל/מלאכת) something the LXX translation occasionally misstates.

The Word was with God
One of the most important concepts in the Prologue is the Word was with God. The Greek is πρὸς which "expresses direction...'in the direction of'...marker of movement or orientation toward someone/something..."1Some say the phrase could be rendered "...the Word was turned toward God..."2The concept continues throughout in the Gospel: the Word "with" God was sent, and returned. "Return" then is an actual re-"turn"-ing back to and so will see God (John 1:18).

Neither ἦν nor πρὸς are used in the Greek translation of Proverbs:

22 The Lord created me as the beginning of his ways, for the sake of his works. 23 Before he made the present age he founded me, in the beginning. 24 Before he made the earth and before he made the depths, before he brought forth the springs of the waters, 25 before the mountains were established and before all the hills, he begets me. 26 The Lord made countries and uninhabited spaces and the habitable heights of what is under heaven. 27 When he prepared the sky, I was present with him, and when he marked out his own throne on the winds. 28 When he made strong the clouds above and when he made secure the springs of what is under heaven, 29 when he made strong the foundations of the earth, 30 I was beside him, fitting together; it is I who was the one in who he took delight. And each day I was glad in his presence at every moment, 31 when he rejoiced after he had completed the world and rejoiced among the sons of men.
(LXX-Proverbs NETS)

22 κύριος ἔκτισέν με ἀρχὴν ὁδῶν αὐτοῦ εἰς ἔργα αὐτοῦ 23 πρὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἐθεμελίωσέν με ἐν ἀρχῇ 24 πρὸ τοῦ τὴν γῆν ποιῆσαι καὶ πρὸ τοῦ τὰς ἀβύσσους ποιῆσαι πρὸ τοῦ προελθεῗν τὰς πηγὰς τῶν ὑδάτων 25 πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη ἑδρασθῆναι πρὸ δὲ πάντων βουνῶν γεννᾷ με 26 κύριος ἐποίησεν χώρας καὶ ἀοικήτους καὶ ἄκρα οἰκούμενα τῆς ὑπ᾽ οὐρανόν 27 ἡνίκα ἡτοίμαζεν τὸν οὐρανόν συμπαρήμην αὐτῷ καὶ ὅτε ἀφώριζεν τὸν ἑαυτοῦ θρόνον ἐπ᾽ ἀνέμων 28 ἡνίκα ἰσχυρὰ ἐποίει τὰ ἄνω νέφη καὶ ὡς ἀσφαλεῗς ἐτίθει πηγὰς τῆς ὑπ᾽ οὐρανὸν 29 καὶ ἰσχυρὰ ἐποίει τὰ θεμέλια τῆς γῆς 30 ἤμην παρ᾽ αὐτῷ ἁρμόζουσα ἐγὼ ἤμην ᾗ προσέχαιρεν καθ᾽ ἡμέραν δὲ εὐφραινόμην ἐν προσώπῳ αὐτοῦ ἐν παντὶ καιρῷ 31 ὅτε εὐφραίνετο τὴν οἰκουμένην συντελέσας καὶ ἐνευφραίνετο ἐν υἱοῗς ἀνθρώπων

The absence of this essential statement is direct proof against an allusion to Proverbs. When wisdom states she was "with" the Lord (8:27), the word used to describe that condition is συμπαρήμην, which is "to be present" as in (Acts 25:24). It would have been a simple matter for the Gospel writer to say "...the Word was present with God..." to establish a clear connection to Proverbs 8:27. In fact, "to be present" is how most understand the phrase "the Word was with God." Clearly the Gospel writer avoided making this linguistic connection.

Later wisdom states she was "by" him. Here the word is παρά which is used in the Prologue (1:6, 14). However, the Gospel use conveys the opposite meaning. John the Baptist was not in proximity to God: he was sent "by" God. Likewise, when the Word is revealed as becoming flesh, it was on earth with those who beheld Him. Again, it would have been as simple matter for the Gospel writer to use the words as they were in Proverbs, but as with πρὸς, they chose a message distinct from, and in this case, opposite to the use with wisdom in Proverbs.

Additional evidence is seen in the etymology of πρὸς which is the strengthened form of πρὸ. πρὸ is used 6 times in Proverbs (8:23, 24 [3 times], 25 [2 times]) and 9 times in John (1:47; 5:7; 10:8; 11:55; 12:1; 13:1; 13:19; 17:5; 17:24). The Gospel writer employed πρὸ in a manner which alludes to "with you before..." and "before the foundation..." as found in Proverbs:

And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (John 17:5) [ESV]
καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ πάτερ παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί

Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24)
πάτερ ὃ δέδωκάς μοι θέλω ἵνα ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγὼ κἀκεῖνοι ὦσιν μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἵνα θεωρῶσιν τὴν δόξαν τὴν ἐμὴν ἣν δέδωκάς μοι ὅτι ἠγάπησάς με πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

As with πρὸς, the Gospel writer avoids making a direct connection, and they significantly alter the message from that found in Proverbs. In 17:5, it is "glory" not "wisdom" which was with the Father and in 17:24, it is "love." Moreover, the Gospel writer replaced "foundation of the earth" with "foundation of the world," κόσμος (a word not used in the passage in Proverbs). Effectively, the use is "allusion avoidance" as if the Gospel writer was aware of the potential to connect the Word to the personified wisdom of Proverbs, and purposely wrote to avoid making any connection. Obviously, it would have been a simple matter to write "foundation of the earth." In fact, like "with God," most understand "foundation of the world" to be equivalent with "foundation of the earth" despite the obvious difference.

Make, Create, or Possess
There is a interesting question on the translation of κτίζω which is "create" in Proverbs. Regardless of how the word was understood, it is not used in the Gospel. That is, there is no allusion to "create" between the Gospel and Proverbs.

The Prologue only employs the verb γίνομαι to describe a work of creation (John 1:3, 10, 12, 14). As with πρὸς, γίνομαι is not used in Proverbs. It is however found in the LXX Genesis account of creation (1:3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15, 19, 20, 23, 24, 30, 31).

A second issue with trying to connect creation as described in John with that in Proverbs, is the manner in which how the work of making things is conveyed. In John, the Word has an active role; in Proverbs, wisdom is a witness to what is made and nothing is made through her. On the other hand, the Word is actively participating in what is made: all things are made through him and nothing which is made (i.e. lady wisdom) is made without Him. In the Gospel through is διά, and as with πρὸς and γίνομαι, διά is not used in the passage in Proverbs.

In the beginning
The one common phrase to all three is ἐν ἀρχῇ: in the beginning...

Genesis:  In the beginning God ἐποίησεν the heaven and the earth
Proverbs: The Lord ἔκτισέν me the beginning of his ways for his works
Proverbs: He ἐθεμελίωσέν me before time in the beginning, before he made the earth
John:     In the beginning ἦν the Word

Before looking at these in detail, it is important to acknowledge John unequivocally states nothing came into existence except through the Word (1:3). So it is impossible for the Word, as understood by John, to be "created" by some other agency. Rather, according to the Gospel writer, if wisdom was created, it was through the Word. Also, "create" in Proverbs is קָנָה which means possessed. While wisdom can be possessed, it makes little sense to say it was created (God must have wisdom). Similarly when the OP refers to "the Word" as the utterance of God, an "utterance" from God is not created. These are always present with God.

There are two statements in Proverbs: both fail to follow Genesis. The first, 8:22 speaks to קָנָנִי רֵאשִׁית "possessing (or creating) in the beginning," not בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא "in the beginning made" as in Genesis 1:1. The second 8:23 speaks of נִסַּכְתִּי מֵרֹאשׁ "I was set up from the beginning" using words not found in the Genesis account of creation. Therefore, in the original text, there is no clear allusion to creation as detailed in Genesis.

In LXX-Proverbs ἀρχὴν is in v. 22 and ἐν ἀρχῇ in v 23. Thus, ἐν ἀρχῇ is properly speaking to נִסַּכְתִּי מֵרֹאשׁ "I was set up from the beginning...before the earth was made." Verse 22 which speaks to being "possessed" uses ἀρχὴν to mean "the head or the beginning" of His ways. In other words, the reference is not to time. It is verse 23 which has the element of time with "established...before the earth was made." Notably absent from this ἐν ἀρχῇ passage is "heaven." That is, the Genesis account speaks to heaven and earth where Proverbs has only "earth." The passage in Proverbs may be linked theoretically to "creation" in Genesis, but connecting the literal texts is tenuous at best, and all allusions in John 1 are to clearly to Genesis.

Conclusion
Despite English translations which might suggest John has something in common with Proverbs 8:22-31, there is no allusion in the Greek texts to the main theme the Word was with God; how things were made and the significance of being with the Father from the foundation of the world.


Notes:
1. Fredrick William Danker, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, The University Chicago Press, 2000, p. 873-874. [Eg. Proverbs 9:4: “He who is a fool, let him turn aside to me…” ὅς ἐστιν ἄφρων ἐκκλινάτω πρός με]
2. Francis J. Moloney, Beginning the Good News: A Narrative Approach, Wipf & Stock Publishers, 1992, p. 138

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  • Thank you for the response. So is Sophia another unsung being or consort besides the LOGOS who was there in the beginning, and who was a workman, etc. 30 I was by him, suiting myself to him, I was that wherein he took delight; and daily I rejoiced in his presence continually Was it the LORD's wife? Was it the LOGOS' Mommy? – Ruminator Jun 6 '20 at 17:19
  • Actually, I believe the Hebrew reads more like "acquired" while the Greek has KTIZW - possibly "created". – Ruminator Jun 6 '20 at 19:25
  • The KJV translates Strong's H7069 in the following manner: Buy (46x), get (15x), purchased (5x), buyer (3x), possessor (3x), possessed (2x), owner (1x), recover (1x), redeemed (1x), miscellaneous (7x). to get, acquire, create, buy, possess (Qal) to get, acquire, obtain of God originating, creating, redeeming His people possessor of Eve acquiring of acquiring knowledge, wisdom to buy (Niphal) to be bought (Hiphil) to cause to possess blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/… – Ruminator Jun 6 '20 at 21:46
  • There is an interesting footnote on Genesis 4:1: [Gen 4:1 NLT] (1) Now Adam had sexual relations with his wife, Eve, and she became pregnant. When she gave birth to Cain, she said, "With the LORD's help, I have produced (fn) a man!" "4:1b Or I have acquired. Cain sounds like a Hebrew term that can mean “produce” or “acquire.”" – Ruminator Dec 4 '20 at 22:18
  • What about the reference to ἐν ἀρχῇ that I pointed out? And the reference to creating by speaking? And "Let us make"? πρὸς, in the context of John 1 appears to me to be "at the side of" or simply "with". – Ruminator Dec 4 '20 at 22:42
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As I was researching another question just now about John's sources I came across this Wiki that says that scholars now believe that John's sources do in fact include Proverbs 8:22 and following, as I surmised.

...But the author was also familiar with non-Jewish sources: the Logos of the prologue (the Word that is with God from the beginning of creation) derives from both the Jewish concept of Lady Wisdom and from the Greek philosophers, while John 6 alludes not only to the exodus but also to Greco-Roman mystery cults, while John 4 alludes to Samaritan messianic beliefs.[17]...

"Wisdom" aka "Sophia" (the Greek word) is, in Hebrew a feminine form and is presented as the "virtuous woman" who invites the clueless sinner to dine at her house contrasted to the "heathen woman" whose house is a portal to hADES.

Sophia has an obvious and overarching female character for most of the chapter but is also referred to as a "workman".

So yes, I find with other modern scholars that John is expounding both texts in his narratives about the Messiah, clarifying the origin and nature of the Messiah as the embodiment and expression of God's utterance and his wisdom.

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A fine question indeed: I think that indeed both Genesis 1 and Proverbs 8:22 are alluded - which I think is the case - and this is a clear statement of uncreatedness and full divinity of Logos, because He is the very "say" of God, without which "say" He cannot even "pronounce" the "let there be", that is to say, is absolutely impotent to perform the act of creation.

To think that God has some another hidden "say", or hidden "Logos", through which He creates the next "say", that is to say, next Logos, namely that of John 1:1-3, through which He again creates the world, will amount to introduction of a negative infinity within God, for this first "say" will also require another "say" and so ad infinitum.

Therefore, the Proverbs 8:22's "Lord made (ἔκτισεν) me" (if other, also quite plausible versions of Aquilla, Symmachus and Theodotion's ἐκτήσατο με "possessed me" or "acquired me" is not a better rendering) is impossible to be interpreted in a strict sense of "creation" (moreover that the same notion is rendered by another werb γεννᾷ με in the immediate sequel (Proverbs 8:25), which is "to beget", thus, unlike in the later Trinitarian debates those two words were used here interchangeably), for God cannot create without Wisdom, and this Wisdom, thus, is always, co-eternally with Him, unless we assert an outlandish blasphemy that God does not eternally possess His ability to create, but first created this ability - a.k.a Wisdom/Logos - and then created the world.

But this unbiblical 'double creation' thought, that is to say, that God first creates Logos which becomes later His Instrument for creation of the World, represents a mythology adhered by Arius and his modern-day followers like Jehovah Witnessists and, perhaps also others, Unitarists, for instance, but hardly a theology deserving this noble name.

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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Caleb Apr 14 '19 at 17:20

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