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The idea of the LOGOS being with God and active in creation always seemed to me to be alluding to Genesis 1 where God creates the world by speaking, "Let there be..." and I think that's still valid.

However, while reading Proverbs 8:22-31 LXX I was struck by many parallels with John 1:1-3 (and other NT allusions):

Brenton LXX Proverbs 8:

22 The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works. 23 He established me † before time was in the beginning, before he made the earth: 24 even before he made the depths; before the fountains of water came forth: 25 before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me. 26 The Lord made countries and uninhabited tracks, and the highest inhabited parts of the world. 27 When he prepared the heaven, I was present with him; and when he ‡ prepared his throne upon the winds: 28 and when he strengthened the clouds above; and when he secured the fountains of the earth: 29 decree. and when he strengthened the foundations of the earth: 30 I was by him, suiting myself to him, I was that wherein he took delight; and daily I rejoiced in his presence continually. 31 For he rejoiced when he had completed the world [IE: "saw that it was good"], and rejoiced among [IE: "very good"] the children of men.

Now, the "he rejoiced when he completed the world" seems to refer to God seeing that each day of creation was made well, ala Genesis 1. But the references to being "with God" fit both Genesis 1 and Proverbs 8.

So is John 1:1-3 alluding to God's utterance being with him at creation, with the utterance being God's "fiat" (IE: "Let there be x") or both Genesis 1 and Proverbs 8:22-31 with the Messiah being both God's utterance and his wisdom personified?

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As I was researching another question just now about John's sources I came across this Wiki that says that scholars now believe that John's sources do in fact include Proverbs 8:22 and following, as I surmised.

...But the author was also familiar with non-Jewish sources: the Logos of the prologue (the Word that is with God from the beginning of creation) derives from both the Jewish concept of Lady Wisdom and from the Greek philosophers, while John 6 alludes not only to the exodus but also to Greco-Roman mystery cults, while John 4 alludes to Samaritan messianic beliefs.[17]...

"Wisdom" aka "Sophia" (the Greek word) is, in Hebrew a feminine form and is presented as the "virtuous woman" who invites the clueless sinner to dine at her house contrasted to the "heathen woman" whose house is a portal to hADES.

Sophia has an obvious and overarching female character for most of the chapter but is also referred to as a "workman".

So yes, I find with other modern scholars that John is expounding both texts in his narratives about the Messiah, clarifying the origin and nature of the Messiah as the embodiment and expression of God's utterance and his wisdom.

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In my understanding John 1 is discussing Genesis 1 and in order to see the connection there are a few things to consider. It mostly has to do with the AlephTav or the et.

Jesus says about Himself

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Evidently that Alpha and Omega is in Greek and is referencing the first and last letter of the Greek alphabet. But the first and last letters in the Aleph-bet is Aleph and Tav.

There is in the Tanakh a two letter word that has been referred to as a direct object pointer or a definite direct object but it has no exact meaning per se and although it appears over 7,000 times in different forms like vavalephtav it doesn’t always follow the direct object pointer rule, nor is it always used where a direct object pointer would demand it be used. So it has led many to speculate on its real meaning or significance, especially prior to AD or CE

The AlephTav is also called the et or the word. Interesting to read it in Hebrew

(I’ll write it all in English rather than Hebrew if that’s ok)

In the beginning Elohim AlephTav created the heavens vavalephtav the earth.

(The vavAlephTav in my understanding is the same as the first, it’s merely emphasizing that the same created heavens and the same created the earth.

Then you read John 1

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d. The same was in the beginning with G-d. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” ‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In the beginning Elohim The Word created the heavens, The Word the earth.

(It is also curious to observe the AlephTav used in the case of lineage, must be read in the Hebrew. When Esau gives up his birthright in the Hebrew it switches from AlephTavEsau and Jacob to Esau and AlephTavJacob. Or Ruth when she is redeemed she goes from Ruth to AlephTavRuth. But this is a side note.)

The ET is the Word and John says of Jesus that He IS the Word and then begins to quote Genesis 1.

I love what Jesus Himself says.

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” ‭‭John‬ ‭5:39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And indeed if the et is actually speaking of the One who goes by Alpha and Omega in the Greek then the et is found over 7,000 times in the Scriptures. And they indeed testify of Him.

I highly recommend one looks into the AlephTav. The rabbis were leaning heavily into ascribing the et to G-d but when Jesus came onto the scene they scraped that and focused heavily on a monotheistic interpretation despite their two powers in heaven and the Adonai Elohim is echâd, rather than Adonai El is yachid.

Proverbs 8 deals with wisdom, and I prefer to remain with my current response concerning John 1. I do believe that Proverbs 8 obviously overlaps with John 1 and Genesis 1 because it’s about Creation. But that would mean going into another Hebrew concept called the memra which is the word and the Targums translate it as the Lord in certain cases.

”By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.” ‭‭Psalms‬ ‭33:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is a very long and deep subject as is the AlephTav.

John 1 is saying that the Word created all things and was G-d, translated further Jesus is the Creator and Jesus is G-d

“Who is the image of the invisible G-d, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.” ‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:15-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So yes John 1 has overlap in Proverbs 8 but it’s actually quoting Genesis 1.

  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Caleb Apr 14 at 17:21
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A fine question indeed: if both Genesis 1 and Proverbs 8:22 are alluded - which I think is the case - then there is a clear statement of uncreatedness and full divinity of Logos, because He is the very "say" of God, without which "say" He cannot even "pronounce" the "let there be", that is to say, is absolutely impotent to perform the act of creation. To think that God has some another hidden "say", or hidden "Logos" through which He creates the next "say", that is to say, next Logos, through which He again creates the world, will amount to introduction of a negative infinity within God, for this first "say" will also require another "say" and so ad infinitum. Therefore, the Proverbs 8:22's "Lord made (ἔκτισεν) me" is impossible to be interpreted in a strict sense of "creation", for God cannot create without Wisdom, and this Wisdom, thus, is always, co-eternally with Him, unless we assert a blasphemy that God does not eternally possess His ability to create, but first created this ability - a.k.a Wisdom/Logos - and then created the world. But this is a mythology adhered by Arius and his modern-day followers like Jehovah Witnessists and others, but hardly a theology deserving this noble name.

  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Caleb Apr 14 at 17:20

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