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Daniel 12:6-11 ESV

6 And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream,[b] “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?” 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished. 11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days

Daniel 8:13-14 ESV

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?” 14 And he said to me,[c] “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

There seems to be some parallels in the above texts

1) Two angels on the river banks speak to each other

2) Daily sacrifice is taken away

3) Abomination of Desolation

Could the 1290 days be a part of 2300 evenings and mornings?

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    Some people do indeed suggest that the 2300 evenings-and-mornings are to be interpreted as 2300 / 2 = 1150 days, which would then indicate a crescendo of 1150, 1290, and 1335 days.
    – Lucian
    Sep 25, 2018 at 1:33
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    @Lucian That math would be irrational. If anything, you would multiply by two, instead of divide, because you have 2300 evenings and 2300 mornings. But studying the Hebrew should clear this up: it is simply being explicitly clear that these are 2300 full days--no other math is needed.
    – Polyhat
    Sep 28, 2021 at 2:09
  • @Polyhat: Personally, I suspect the same, since the 2300 days would approximate 78 astronomical months (of 29.5306 days), and Babylonians were master astronomers, since Daniel was written in Aramaic, the official language of the three successive empires mentioned therein, and the immediately following chapter speaks of seventy groups of seven years each.
    – Lucian
    Sep 28, 2021 at 8:45
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    @Lucian To be clear, we should say that parts of Daniel were written in Aramaic--several chapters of it. Most was Hebrew and some of the vocabulary is Persian. That said, Daniel's prophecies follow the prophetic time formula that is embodied in the Hebrew word for day/time/year--a day represents a year (see Ezek. 4:4-6; Num. 14:34). Ezekiel lived in Babylon contemporaneously to Daniel, and the two were likely friends, both sharing the prophetic gift.
    – Polyhat
    Sep 28, 2021 at 11:21
  • (CALCULATING DAYS) Enough of manipulating numbers, multiplying, dividing, redefining...*ad nauseum*! The prophecies make sense when the numbers are taken at face value! "Evening and morning" is no different than the common division imagery of forty days and forty nights or three days and three nights. They are speaking of just "days."
    – ray grant
    Jun 12, 2023 at 22:09

5 Answers 5

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No.

Dan. ch. 12 concerns the destruction of both Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70. Dan. ch. 8 concerns the desecration of the temple only.

The end of the prophesy of Dan. 12 is speaking of the end of the 490 years that Gabriel began telling him about in Dan. 9:24. Daniel chap. 9 through Dan. chap. 12 is the prophesy of the complete destruction of Jerusalem.

Dan. 9:24,

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,... " (KJV)

The people and the city are identified as "thy people" and "thy holy city". Daniel's people were the Judeans (Jews) and Daniel's holy city was Jerusalem. This limits the prophesy so that it cannot be applied to any other than Daniel's people and city- the Jews and Jerusalem.

The prophesy continues on through all of chapters 10, 11 and 12.

We are told in Dan. ch.12 when the end of this prophesy would be.

Dan. 12:7,

"7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

The end of the 490 years was when the power of the holy people was scattered. The power of the holy people (the Jews) was centered in the council / sanhedrin which operated out of Jerusalem and the Herodian temple. It was scattered completely when that temple was destroyed in AD 70 and the genealogy was burned.

Dan. 12:11 defines the beginning and ending points of the 1290 days. From the beginning is the time the daily sacrifice was taken away, which happened during the Roman occupation around the fall of AD 66 when Eleazar, son of the High Priest Ananias ordered the gentile sacrifices and the peace offerings to Caesar to be stopped. This angered the Romans, and Josephus considered it to be the real beginning of the Roman-Jewish wars. (1)

The ending point of the 1290 days was when the "abomination of desolation" - that which caused the desolation or destruction - appeared. Christ references this prophesy in Matt. 24:15 when discussing the destruction of the temple. The abomination of desolation is defined in Luke 21:22.

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." (KJV)

The abomination of desolation was the Roman army which besieged Jerusalem, and destroyed the city and tore down the temple so that not one stone was left upon another (Matt. 24:2). The end point of the 1290 days was approx. Sep 24 - 26, AD 70, also the first of Tishri, Yom Teruah, the Day of Trumpets.

See The Signs of the Feast, Parts I, II, and III for more information on the Day of Trumpets at my blog ShreddingTheVeil.

See also The Gathering of the Elect for some of the details of the Roman-Jewish war and the prophesy of the destruction of the temple from Matt. 24 and Luke 21 here.

Note 1:

The Daily Sacrifice Ceased - AD 66, by Ed Stevens here

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Yes.

The answer I have used goes like this:

As recorded in Daniel 12:11-12, 1290 days = 1150 days after daily sacrifices taken away + 140 days when abomination set up. 45 days later the temple is cleansed. Antiochus Epiphanes dies. These are the days of the Maccabean revolt.

167 – 164 BC, 2300 evening and morning sacrifices taken away (1150 days) by Antiochus Epiphanes (Daniel 8:14)

See Commentary on the Old Testament C F Kell Franz Delitzsch You can find this in a Google search "1290 days antiochus"

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Let's deal first with the 2300 evenings and mornings.

Professors Michael Segal and Shlomo Wadler have recently argued [1] [2] that the expression “2300 evenings and mornings” in Dan 8:14 refers to the number of daily offerings which were to be missed due to the desecration of the Temple during the same 3.5-year interval referred to in 9:27 and 12:11–12.

The gist of the argument is that, according to an interpretive tradition of Lev 23:37-38 attested in the Damascus Document but probably pre-sectarian, in festival days and Sabbaths there should be only one daily sacrifice.

Let us calculate the number of missing daily sacrifices in 3.5 years.

The festival days in a year are:

  • 6 Unleavened Bread (1 day counted apart as Sabbath)
  • 1 Pentecost = Shavuot
  • 1 1st day of 7th month
  • 1 10th day of 7th month = Day of Atonement = Yom Kippur
  • 7 Tabernacles = Sukkot (1 day counted apart as Sabbath)

for a total of 16 non-Sabbath festival days per year (in all calendars).

Assuming the lunisolar calendar of 354-day regular years plus an additional 30-day month seven times every 19 years:

354 / 7 = 51 Sabbaths per year (rounding up 50.57)

16 + 51 = 67 special days with 1 daily sacrifice

354 - 67 = 287 regular days with 2 daily sacrifices

287 x 2 + 67 = 641 evening and morning sacrifices per year

641 x 3.5 = 2244 evening and morning sacrifices in 3.5 years except...

... for the additional 30-day month (26 regular days + 4 Sabbaths):

26 x 2 + 4 = 56 evening and morning sacrifices in the additional month

2244 + 56 = 2300 evening and morning sacrifices in 3.5 years

Moving on to the 1290 days, it is the most probable duration of the second half of an interval of 7 years once the duration of the first half has been reckoned to be of 1260 days (= 360 x 3.5), assuming not the lunisolar calendar but one with regular years of 360 days, leap years of 390 days every 6 years (except the 60th) and extra-leap years of 405 days every 60 years, so that the average year length is 365.25 days. BTW, the 1335 days in the next verse is the least probable duration of the same interval using that calendar. For further details, see this answer: https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/78457/15789

References

[1] Segal, M., & Wadler, S. (2022). “For 2300 Evenings and Mornings” (Dan 8:14): Recalculating the Cessation of the Daily Offering, Journal for the Study of Judaism (published online ahead of print 2022). doi: https://doi.org/10.1163/15700631-bja10053

[2] Presentation in the virtual conference "Dead Sea Scrolls in Recent Scholarship", May 17-20, 2020. Online at: https://biblicalstudiesonline.wordpress.com/2020/08/10/the-dead-sea-scrolls-in-recent-scholarship-2020/, link titled "Hebrew Bible and it Interpretation" (sic), beginning at 29:15.

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Two Different Times Although, as you note, that there are some similarities between these two prophecies, there is a determining difference, and that is the all important CONTEXT! The prophecy of ch. 8 dealt with the history of Israel through the Persian and Greek era, represented by the Ram and Goat respectively.

But ch. 11-12 dealt with the history of Israel from Persia all the way through the Roman empire to the end of the Jewish nation. It covered the whole SECOND TEMPLE ERA. It relays the history of Persian kings...to the conquest of Alexander the Great ...to the break-up of that empire into four sections...to the rise of Antiochus Epiphanes and the Maccabees...to the Roman conquest of the East...to Herod the Great...to the final Destruction of Judea by the Roman generals and the Zealots!

Daniel 8 Although there is some minor debate over the exact terminus a quo and terminus ad quem of the 2300 days, there is a majority consensus that it deals with the desecration of the Temple and the rededication of it, which is celebrated by the Jews as the Feast of Lights (John 10:22) (See 1 Maccabees 4:41-58, 2 Macc. 10:1-7, Josephus Antiquities 12.7.6-7) The dedication happened on December 25, 165 B.C. So this 2300 time period would represent approximately 171-165 B.C. (6 years, 4 months, 20 days).

Evenings and Mornings One ought not be confused at the terminology of evenings and mornings. Recall that Genesis 1 referred to a single day by the same way. Note also the tendency to divide daylight from night-time in other phrases: forty days and forty nights and three days and three nights, etc. These all were referring to just the number expressed as a whole day. No need for any "calculating, multiplying, configuring, etc. It's just 2300 days at issue here. As far as considering a "year-day" (a year for each day), take note of John Calvin's comment:

It cannot be used of either years or months...those who receive it of years and months are wretchedly mistaken, and even ridiculous in their calculations...We see this altogether foreign and adverse to the mind of Christ, and to the use of this prophecy...We have shown how impossible it is to explain this peophecy otherwise than by Antiochus...Boys even know this by reading the accredited history of those times... (Calvin Commentaries, Daniel, p.541)

Daniel 11-12 The time period of Daniel 11-12 covers the entire SECOND TEMPLE ERA ending with the final Destruction of the Temple. The final verses of it are quoted by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse (12:1, 11) The horrible distress at the fall of Judea was not only referred to by Jesus, but also, the general, Flavius Josephus (See Introduction, Jewish Wars).

According to the synoptic section in Luke the Abomination of Desolation (...that makes desolate) was the Roman Legions (Luke 21:20). And the number of day that the armies tromped up and down the land of Judea was 1290! Recall that Jesus warned His disciples to flee JUDEA, not just Jerusalem. (Matt. 24:16) The devastation was wide-spread with villages being torched in Galilee, Perea, Galilee, and Judea proper, with all supply lines cut off from Jerusalem. When the soldiers finally beseiged Jerusalem their fate was sealed, literally.

The 1335 Days The horrible conquest, with all its suffering, can be read in the history of the eye-witness, Gen. Josephus (A captured Jewish general). We focus rather on the 1330 number of days.

The city of Jerusalem had its three walls of defense breached. The Temple was burned and torn down. The people were massacres, or enslaved. Except for a Herodian palace in the Upper City which refused to surrender. It is estimated they had enough supplies to last for an indeterminate period of time. The walls were so thick and foreboding that the Roman general Titus decided to wait it out.

But amazingly on the 1335th day, the remaining Zealots opened the gates and surrendered mysteriously! Notice the remarks of Josephus' history concerning Titus's surprise:

Now when Titus came into this (upper city), he admired not only some other places of strength in it, but particularly those strong towers which the tyrants in their ad conduct had relinquished; for when he saw their solid altitude, and the largeness of their several stones, and the exactness of their joints, as also how great was their breadth, and how extensive their length, he expressed himself...'We have certainly had God for our assistant in this war, and it was no other than God who ejected the Jews out of these fortifications; for what could the hands of man or any machines do towards overthrowing these towers? (Wars, VI, 9:1)

If the tyrants had stayed in the fortress, the Roman Legions would have stayed around the territory and continued to massacre the Jewish people. The soldiers had seen the despicable display of gross murder the Zealots committed on each other and the citizens, and they had no mercy for them. But as Jesus said, with the mysterious surrender, the killing stopped:

And except those days should be shortened, there would no flesh be saved, but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Matthew 24:21-22)

Conclusion So it can be concluded, with amazement at the accuracy of biblical prophecy, that the two different Days in Daniel 8 and Daniel 12 refer two separate events. The first one described the desolation by Antiochus and the Dedication of the Temple (instigating the Feast of Lights)...and the second number amazingly portrayed the exact duration of the Desolation of Judea, culminating in the destruction of the Temple!

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Daniel is told that this is an "End Times Prophecy" so the events are not around 70 AD but well into the future.

By 2022 the daily sacrifice had not been re introduced in the Temple in Jerusalem so we have to look for other explanations in present times for its meaning and also what is meant by the Abomination of Desolation.

Also we know that Daniel's people were Jews but perhaps the Angel meant that they were people of God's creation - the earth not just Jews.

The prophecy of the Abomination suggests a fire in a tall building is involved and we are told that when on the roof "do not go down to collect your belongings" but "flee into the mountains of Judea" The most disastrous fire in the End Times was surely Grenfell Tower which in retrospect was likened to The New Jerusalem "coming down from heaven, dressed as a bride adorned for her husband" and Grenfell Tower, wrapped in white sheets, certainly fulfilled that description, as well as "standing where it should not (have stood) - it should have collapsed with the intense heat!

The giving up of the sacrifice and oblation (giving) I think must have been Brexit, where the UK ceased to sacrifice their sovreignity to Brussels and to make gifts (oblation) to the EU

Interestingly, the time span between the two events was exactly 1390 days.

You may check this out and say that it was only 1389 bays because Brexit was agreed on Christmas Eve, but if you read the small print, this was only the verbal agreement and Mon Barnier actually confirmed with Boris Johnson that he would be going into his office on Christmas Day 25/12/2020 to actually sign the document!

Exactly 1390 days after Grenfell Tower on 14 June 2017

So if the Cleansing of the Sanctuary (literally restoring it to its original form) is to be 2300 days after the Abomination of Desolation this pinpoints it as 1st October 2023

Exactly what the Cleansing of the Sanctuary will be, will not become obvious until then, but please remain watchful!!

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    (-1) Hermeneutics is all about text analysis in its own intended context - understanding the intent and background of the text, to avoid our own personal interests and biases affecting our interpretation. This feels like the opposite, where you're ignoring the past 2400+ years of history and only reading this for your own specific geographic location and moment. Grenfell Tower is one of the smallest disasters in the history of the world, which should be the first clue that this is not a faithful interpretation of the text.
    – Steve can help
    Mar 28, 2023 at 21:02
  • So what happened on 1st October 2023??
    – curiousdannii
    Nov 22, 2023 at 13:07

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