In John 15:19 what does the author intend by κόσμος and the apostles no longer being of it?

Question

KJV John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants] εἰ ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου ἦτε, ὁ κόσμος ἂν τὸ ἴδιον ἐφίλει· ὅτι δὲ ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου οὐκ ἐστέ, ἀλλ' ἐγὼ ἐξελεξάμην ὑμᾶς ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, διὰ τοῦτο μισεῖ ὑμᾶς ὁ κόσμος.

It is indeed a good spiritual question.
– Ozzie Ozzie
Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 21:18 — Ozzie Ozzie, Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 21:18
Note: hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/31814/…
– Perry Webb
Commented Apr 13, 2018 at 7:25 — Perry Webb, Commented Apr 13, 2018 at 7:25

Emmanuel L · Accepted Answer · 2018-04-12 23:59:42Z

Perhaps it could be interpreted as the order(strongs also gives κόσμου as meaning order or structure) that constitutes this creation- a fallen framework and broken rules, unclean from the source point of sin entry at Eden- like a little yeast causing the whole lump to rise, sin contaminated the order of creation- leaving behind an impure universe hurtling toward judgement, dragging all in contact with its uncleaness along with it. (John seems to use γῆς for Earth esp in Rev 13:8 rather than κόσμου, implying creation and the this present “structure” of the universe and its law. Again, just as a side note Mathew speaks of the salt of γῆς and the light of the κόσμου , Math 5:13)

Rather than γῆς , this is the entire concept of creation rising up against those not part of it

The OT has rules regarding purification of impure objects Num 31:21/Lev 11:32. Uncleaness precludes communication/communion with God. Things unclean were according to the Law either destroyed, or purified with fire and/or water- and in this is the archetype of our souls. All of us are effectively unclean and are therefore to be destroyed like an unclean clay pot- or be cleansed by fire- this time, the living fire of the Spirit.

When chosen, ( parallel the choosing of Israel out of the nations of earth, no intrinsic good in either Israel, or us individually, but saved and chosen because of promise Deut 7:6-8 and Jer 31:31

A new creation, not part of the old system, therefore aliens and a foreign body, like an implanted organ that is rejected. Basically gave up the world’s citizenship and now we’re walking around without a world visa. (World citizens threatening: “We don’t take too kindly to heaven citizens round these parts”) Aliens for Christ
Old order/arrangement/law no longer applicable- diplomatic immunity from Law of death- (reflect heavenly kingdom and so on and so forth) Ambassadors for Christ
Ceremonially spirituality clean, and therefore Able to Access Christ

I do think "order" is the general sense but I'm looking for the specific "order" John has in mind. Are you suggesting that the "order" that John has in mind is human culture? A passage I have in mind that I use as an acid test is this: Joh 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world. Were they expecting a prophet to come into human culture? — Ruminator, Commented Apr 13, 2018 at 0:14
No, not human culture, (as you rightly point out) because that goes against what I infer from the meaning of order/world used elsewhere. Most particularly in 1John 2.16 where he paints κόσμῳ as source for evil/desire/lust, and not human beings/human culture. — Emmanuel L, Commented Apr 13, 2018 at 0:43

Ruminator · Accepted Answer · 2018-05-27 11:28:40Z

In my view (and I realize I get little support from BDAG on this or anyone else for that matter) John uses KOSMOS in a somewhat peculiar sense to refer to the contemporary (to him) Jewish theocratic establishment. If I were pressed for a single word to render what John meant it would probably be "establishment" or "system". It isn't intrinsically negative though often used that way. John's usage can be neutral as referring to "our people" but he is often brutally negative. It is similar to his usage of "the Jews". In modern times that is how "hippies" and the oppressed tend to refer to the government and all of the ancillary systems such as self-serving religion, establishment-serving education, rigged economics, oppressive law enforcement, etc. In this video John Lennon can be seen denouncing the "system":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDf3vcvaRw4

I believe that "John" that authored the 4th canonical gospel and John Lennon have a great deal in common in their use of the "system". And our John's "system" is the Jewish theocracy. Many are tempted to see it as Rome or humanity but I don't think a broader investigation of John's usages bears that out. A couple of good examples are:

Joh 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

Joh 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

Note that no one expected that the prophet to come would "come into the world" but rather into Judaism:

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Those are neutral usages. In John 8 he refers to "the Jews" as "the spawn of Satan". So too in 1 John "the whole establishment is under the control of the wicked one]":

NIV 1Jn_5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

So to answer the question, the KOSMOS is the contemporary (to the disciples) Jewish theocracy which expected to be the seat of the messiah and instead was decidedly outside of independent of its authority structure. So too the disciples, once beholden to the "system" were liberated to become critics of the "establishment":

Act 5:17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation, Act 5:18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison. Act 5:19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, Act 5:20 Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life. Act 5:21 And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought. Act 5:22 But when the officers came, and found them not in the prison, they returned, and told, Act 5:23 Saying, The prison truly found we shut with all safety, and the keepers standing without before the doors: but when we had opened, we found no man within. Act 5:24 Now when the high priest and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. Act 5:25 Then came one and told them, saying, Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people. Act 5:26 Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned. Act 5:27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them, Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Act 5:33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

The same KOSMOS that persecuted Christ persecuted his disciples: