2

Most translations of the Our Father read something similar to the following:

Matthew 6:9-13 (ESV)

Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.

Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

But I've found what claims to be a literal translation of the Lord's Prayer online:1

Father of ours who's in heaven,

hallowed be thy name of yours,

come thy kingdom of yours,

arise thy will of yours,

as in heaven, also on earth.

This bread of ours that's for the coming day give us this day.

And free us from these debts of ours

as also we have freed those debtors of ours.

And do not lead us into trial,

but draw us to you, away from that which is grievous .

In the last two petititons, it appears to be an invocation that I haven't read elsewhere:

"And do not lead us into trial, but draw us to you, away from that which is grievous ."

Question

Is "draw us to you" a valid translation of the Greek sources?2


1 http://pagenotes.com/prayer/LordsPrayer.html

2 The Greek (New Testament) sources can be found here [NA28].

4
  • You could improve this question by doing the following: 1) Quoting the relevant verses from the NT in your question from one of the more common translations (and of course, indicating which translation). 2) Indicate how the pagenotes version compares with several of the more common translations. You might also send an email to the pagenotes author to ask why he made the translation word choice that he did as opposed to using one of the more common translations choices.
    – user17080
    Commented Dec 4, 2017 at 11:18
  • Also, pick a single line, such as "draw us to you" and not the whole prayer in one question. However, the answer is that "draw us to you" is not legit.
    – Ruminator
    Commented Dec 4, 2017 at 16:04
  • Your question refers to some verse from Matt 19:6-23 ... Do you, perhaps men Matt 6:9-13? What am I missing here!
    – robin
    Commented Dec 8, 2017 at 2:15
  • Your question refers to some verse from Matt 19:6-23 ... Do you, perhaps mean Matt 6:9-13? What am I missing here! And your specific (?) question, seems to be about the last line, "but draw us to you, away from that which is grievous" ... is that correct, am I, now, following your line of questioning, James? And, if so, I'd be more than willing to give you the actual words, from the Byzantine source texts (and any Alexandrian variants, if there be any), along with the appropriate declinations and parsings, in their original word order (syntax) ...interested?
    – robin
    Commented Dec 8, 2017 at 2:22

5 Answers 5

4

A Review of the Greek

More or less, this is a so-called 'literal' translation. Exept that it isn't even English in certain places (e.g. "thy will of yours").

On the site itself, it cites the Greek word corresponding to its translation in the text.

Here is the Greek for the prayer from Matthew 6,1 followed by how I would 'literally' translate them. I've bolded the words and their corresponding translation so you can see what is translating what. (The brackets denote helps for understanding the text, and are not translations of the text).

Πάτερ ἡμῶν ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς·

Father of us who [is] in heaven,

ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου·

Treated-as-holy [may] the name of you [be].

ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου·

Let-come the kingdom of you

γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου,

Let-be-brought-about the will of you:

ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς·

As [it is] in heaven [so] also [let it be] on earth.

τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·

the bread of us for-[our]-sustenance give to us this day.

καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν,

and forgive us the debts of us

ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφήκαμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν·

as also we forgive the debt-owers of us

καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,

And [do] not lead us into temptation

ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ.

But deliver us from [all] evil.

As you can see, the way of denoting the possessive (e.g. our trespasses) in Greek is to say 'the trespasses of us.' Which is translated, of course, 'our trespasses' as it should be in actual translations. Let this account for the awkwardness of some 'literal' translations which retain the word order as I have done (they aren't translations at all, since they only usually obscure the language, and don't translate it properly speaking).

'Debts' is an Aramaism for trespasses and wrongdoings against one's neighbour (sins), and is not a monetary debt in this context (this is why Luke has ἁμαρτίας—'sins' instead of—there can be no doubt—Jesus' original ὀφειλήματα—'debts').


Is "draw us to you" a valid translation of the Greek sources?

This is an attempt, according to the website itself, to translate ῥῦσαι, which means to 'deliver' or 'rescue' from something (the state of bondage or danger from which one needs delivered), implicitly, therefore, into something else (i.e. not that state).

They argue that the implicit object, implied in the verb, into which we are delivered is 'you' (God), but this isn't justified from the text. To deliver from evil or calamity, ill-fortune, wickedness etc, is not to say we are being delivered 'to God' but simply out of those things. To say 'God' is to presume too much.

This alone disqualifies it as a 'literal' translation so-called. Because it takes interpretative liberties usually reserved for more 'dynamic' translations, i.e. that used in most Bibles—this being a particularly 'dynamic' translation at that.

'That which is grevious' I would exchange for something which connotes the same thing most common translations do, as well as the word itself in Greek (πονηροῦ). 'all ills,' 'evil,' 'the bad,' 'all afflictions.' All that is an affront to peace with God (since it parallels πειρασμόν in the passage—tempation, trial, calamity). (the Latin Vulgate simply has malo—'evil,' as most translations do).

They have translated 'free' for ἄφες instead of 'forgive' where the context is clearly sins, and the New Testament uses ἀφίημι (the root verb) to be 'forgive' (i.e. forgive sins) all the time for example:

Ephesians 1:7 (ESV)

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness [τὴν ἄφεσιν] of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Obviously, God doesn't pay our debts for us: forgiveness of sins is meant here. The 'cancellation' of debts here obviously means 'forgiveness of sins'.

I hope this clears up something for you. If not, let me know.


1 Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece 28th Edition. Matthew 6:9-13.

6
  • 1
    ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ is also understood by many Greek Fathers to mean (though not necessarily exclusively), "deliver us from the evil one". It is translated that way to this day in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
    – user33515
    Commented Dec 4, 2017 at 16:21
  • 1
    I would say that's a justified interpretation based on the parallelism between it and πειρασμόν which Satan is the master of. Commented Dec 4, 2017 at 16:26
  • 1
    It's always encouraging when someone agrees with the Church Fathers!
    – user33515
    Commented Dec 4, 2017 at 16:41
  • Honor the Church Fathers and the your Mother the Church. Says me, a Catholic xD Commented Dec 4, 2017 at 17:10
  • I've had people on here argue that John Chrysostom misunderstood some of the Greek texts he explained because he never completed the equivalent of Ph.D. level studies in Biblical Greek. Someone with a very high rep.
    – user33515
    Commented Dec 4, 2017 at 17:43
2

Allow me to build on the previous comments.

Matthew 6:10

τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·
the bread of us for-[our]-sustenance give to us this day

I think you are onto something with the replacement of the usual translation, "daily" bread, which appears in the same sentence as "this day". This apparent redundancy is at odds with the unique term, in Greek, that is used to relay something special in this particular context.

That is to say, the redundancy is out of place. The unique word used ought to draw attention rather than be rendered superfluous.

In the same sentence, there is a common term that would not serve the same meaning as the unique term. Maybe it did not carry the full meaning of that unique term.

σήμερον sēmeron = "this day" or "today", as per 41 appearances in Scripture and many more instances of words of similar derivation.

This is a common term and does not resemble the other term used in the same sentence but which has only 2 appearances in Scripture.

The word, ἐπιούσιον, is a term that appears to have been coined for special use in the NT. Meanwhile, there are more common forms of "daily" that could have been used. This particular term, ἐπιούσιον, does not appear in any other context, nor elsewhere, in Greek versions of the Old or New Testaments nor in contemporaneous Greek literature. The context may provide the key to its meaning.

It appears to be unique to the Lord's prayer. The Greek text of Matthew and Luke used a term coined to express something special that Jesus had taught them, perhaps before or after this particular moment in his ministry.

For instance, the offered interpretation above is a term that seems quite clumsy to use in other biblical contexts precisely because it has been coined for this special context. That could explain why this Greek term does not appear elsewhere in the NT nor in other Greek texts of the time.

To wit: for-[our]-sustenance.

This translation/ interpretation might get at one basic meaning and perhaps hints of at least one other mystical meaning. Sustenance = necessities like physical nourishment. And sustenance = spiritual nourishment. But to relay either meaning or both meanings, it would not be necessary to coin such a word as this one. Everyday bread is familiar and so lends itself to being used metaphorically, for instance. Why coin a special word for everyday or daily bread?

The Greek term is unique because it is meant to transmit a unique meaning.

It might be better interpreted to fit its context whereby Jesus referred to himself as the bread that God sends from heaven. And, later, he linked back to this notion when he served bread at the Last Supper and, later again, after his resurrection. Keep in mind that the writers of these Gospels understood this context, special to the teachings and ministry of Jesus. They wrote to unfold that context for their audience even if, at the moment in each narrative, they were hinting or foretelling what was to come later.

The unique term: ἐπιούσιον

epi = super

ouison = substance/ substantial

And so: "super-substance: or "super-substantial bread". Or also super-necessity-essence.ousia = substance, (ousion)epiousion

In the Latin Vulgate, Jerome translated this Greek term ἐπιούσιον, with one Latin phrase in Luke and a different Latin phrase in Matthew. This suggests some uncertainty, perhaps.

Matthew 6:11

Tὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·
Give us this day our super-substantial bread.
Panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie,

Luke 11:3

Τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δίδου ἡμῖν τὸ καθ’ ἡμέραν·
Give us this day our daily bread.
Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie.

Both use the same opening with that unique word:
Τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον [...]
Give us this day our (ἐπιούσιον / epiousion) [...]

These are the only two appearances of this unique word, ἐπιούσιον.

Why would Jerome translate or interpret the same unique word differently in the same context?

The differences between the two NT passages are in the second part of the sentence:

Matthew Luke
Greek δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον· δίδου ἡμῖν τὸ καθ’ ἡμέραν
English grant us today (this day) give to us each day (every day)

Not much difference there, but for possible nuance. Matthew imparts immediacy, the day on which the prayer is made. Luke imparts now and the future days on which the prayer is and will be made. Subtle differences but not huge in terms of the context of Jesus teaching his disciples a manner (or model) for prayer.

Okay, so here is how the two passages read without translation of the unique Greek term, ἐπιούσιον.

Matthew 6:11

Τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·
The bread of ours (Our bread) (ἐπιούσιον/epiousion) grant us today.

Luke 11:3

Τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δίδου ἡμῖν τὸ καθ’ ἡμέραν·
The> bread of us (Our bread) (ἐπιούσιον/epiousion) give to us each day.

Seems to me that in the Lord's prayer, it is reasonable to insert something like super-substantial given the special context of bread from heaven and Jesus teaching that he is the bread God has sent from heaven. As they composed, the two Gospel writers understood that Jesus is the Word. And they used a term that perhaps one borrowed from the other because of the special meaning intended. Seems it was meant to impart a kind of bread that was essential -- more so than bread for physical nourishment, more than for spiritual encouragement, and thus very much particular to Jesus and his salvific role.

So here are the two passages fully translated:

Give us our super-substantial bread this day.

Grant us our super-substantial bread each day.

Matthew and Luke relayed the same meaning. But how to interpret the translation to reveal that special meaning?

This part of the Lord's prayer is a petition with three co-jointed meanings: for the necessities of life, for the God-given spiritual nourishment (the Word of God), and the foretelling of the Eucharist (Jesus himself).

Matthew 4:4

It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.

John 6, Jesus fed the multitude with a few loaves of bread.

John 6:56-58

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

Mark 14:22

Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.”

In chapter 22 of the Gospel of John, the resurrected Jesus fed the Apostles with bread and they recognized him; he told Peter, "Feed my lambs" and "Feed my sheep".

[Note that the word, δίδου, appears only twice in the NT but there are many words that appear to be similarly derived, unlike the unique term, ἐπιούσιον.]

2

As previously noted, the Lord’s Prayer is quoted both in Matthew 6:9-13 and in Luke 11:2b-4.

The Apostolic Bible Polygot translation by Charles Vanderpool is based on a comparison of the Codex Vaticanus-Sixtine text family with the 1519 Aldine Bible, the 1518 Complutensian Polyglot, and various manuscripts, including The Vatopedi manuscript. Charles then translated the result of his comparisons literally into English, which I’ve modified to his suggested English word order:

Matthew:

“Our father, the one in the heavens, sanctify your name! Let your kingdom come! Let your will come to pass! as in heaven, also upon the earth. Our bread, the sufficient, give to us today! And forgive us our debts! as also we forgive our debtors. And you should not insert us for a test, but rescue us from the wicked one! For of you is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory into the eons. Amen.”

Luke:

“Our father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified! Let your kingdom come! Let your will become as in heaven, also upon the earth. Give to us our bread sufficient for the day! And forgive to us our sins! for also to them we forgive—to all owing us. And do not insert us for a test! But rescue us from evil!”

Also note that it’s commonly understood that the Gospel of Matthew was written specifically from a first-century Jewish perspective: Matthew was likely written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek. Manuscript evidence for this assertion includes quotes from the following early Christians:

  • Papias of Hierapolis (60-139 AD) as quoted in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 3.39.14-16, “. . . So then Matthew wrote the oracles in the Hebrew language, and everyone interpreted them as he was able.”

  • Irenaeaus of Lyon (115-180 AD) wrote in Against Heresies 3.1.1, “Matthew also issued a written gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect . . .”

  • Origen (185-253 AD) as quoted in Eusebius of Caesarea (ca 260 AD-339/340 AD), Ecclesiastical History vi. 25, “Among the four gospels which are the only indisputable ones in the Church of God under Heaven, I have learned by tradition that the first was written by Matthew, who was once a publican, but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, and it was prepared for the converts from Judaism, and published in the Hebrew language.” (https://topostext.org/work/732)

0

In Greek it is “ καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν, ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ”[1] [2] wich I read as “do not lead us into a trial, but save us from the deviation”. Deviation, crooked πονηροῦ meaning here an antonym to the straight and righteous. Devil is often referred to as the πονηροῦ sometimes. I also think this is a reference to the trial that Devil created for Job in coordination with God and so we should ask God not to allow this to happen to us (again). [3]

[1] https://biblehub.com/t8/matthew/6.htm

[2] https://biblehub.com/matthew/6-13.htm#lexicon

[3] Job 1:12, Job 2:4-6.

0

More important to me is the Lords prayer weighed in complete context of Luke 11:11 "If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Lords prayer is talking about regardless of what you want to infer spiritual or a physical meaning

Who is the father and does Jesus reference to God use the name Theos. Or did the Jesus understand by implication Plato's meaning of the word God . I understand his reference was a supreme consciousness and all created was a result of Panspermia

2

Your Answer

By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service and acknowledge you have read our privacy policy.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.