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Do any parts of the Bible definitively claim that everything is made by Jesus?

I have read already that some people say that Colossians 1:16 does not mean Jesus was the agent of creation, but of his own dominion.

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him

But what about John 1:3, what does "through" mean there?

Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

I would suppose that the translation is saying that Jesus was a necessary condition of creation, but am more interested in what the original Greek has to say on the word "through".

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    There seem to be a lot of downvotes on answers both good and bad on this topic. So for anyone feeling inclined to downvote, please also take the time to comment and add some clarification about where you feel the answers are missing the mark.
    – P. TJ
    Apr 3 '17 at 1:33
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    See also ESV 1Co 8:6 "yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." Christ is in many ways a demiurge: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge See also Proverbs 8:22ff
    – Ruminator
    Jun 4 '18 at 14:25
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    διά means "through", indicating instrument of doing, like a surgeon makes operation through his hands (διὰ χερῶν), or the sun enlightens through rays (δι᾽ἀκτίνων). As a surgeon is perfectly impotent to operate without hand, and the sun perfectly impotent to enlighten without rays, so the Father is perfectly impotent either to create the world or to save the world without His Son, who, therefore, is co-eternal and co-divine with Him, as plainly said by John. Jun 5 '18 at 20:23
  • ^ This is the officially true and correct statement. Nov 15 '18 at 1:12

16 Answers 16

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Thayer explains that when δι ("through") is used in the genitive it can describe "the Means or Instrument by which anything is effected," and is used specifically of "one who is the author of the action as well as its instrument, or of the efficient cause".1 Liddel & Scott support this, stating that the primary usage of dia in the genitive when used causally is "of the agent" of the action.2

So at the most basic linguistic level, δια certainly can identify the agent of an action. Louw & Nida add a helpful nuance, however. They explain that δια in the genitive defines "a marker of [an] intermediate agent, with implicit or explicit causative agent."3 In other words, δι here specifically implies a causative agent that is in some sense intermediate. The same type of language is used when the Word of the Lord came "through" the prophets. This gives strong support to the traditional Trinitarian concept of creation as an act of the Godhead, God the Father creating "through" the agency of the Son. As Carson explains:

v. 3 simply insists, both positively and negatively, that the Word was God's Agent in the creation of all that exists...

In fact, Carson argues that it is better to translate the passage as "All things were made by him, and what was made... was in no way made without him."4

Leon Morris, in contrast, argues that δι is still best translated as "through" in order to highlight that "the Father is the source of all that is" However, he also maintains that Jesus functions as the agent of creation. Morris points out that this agency is bolstered by the fact that the same language is also used to describe the Father's own role in creation, specifically in Rom 11:36 "or from Him and through (δι) Him and to Him are all things."5 This really eliminates any question as to whether δι can refer to the agent or even source of creation.

So regardless of whether it is best to translate δι here as "by" or "through", all of the evidence suggests that John does explicitly ascribe agency in creation to Jesus. As Prophets were the agents through which God's words came into physical being, Jesus was the agent through which the universe itself came into being, as the second clause of the passage confirms, "apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being (NAU translation)."

References:

  1. Thayer, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.

  2. Liddel & Scott, Greek-English Lexicon

  3. Louw & Nida, Greek & English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domains.

  4. D.A. Carson, The Gospel According to John, Pillar New Testament Commentary.

  5. Leon Morris, The Gospel According to John, NICNT.

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  • i have accepted this answer, though i kept reading it wrong. thanks -- i hope i did the right thing! Jan 25 '20 at 2:52
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The Greek reads:

παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν

which has the literal reading:

All [things] through him him came into being and without him came into being not even one thing which has come into being

The particle δι is a contraction of the preposition διά, which given the case of αὐτός (which is genitive here) usually takes the meaning of "through", as in "by means of".

The passage literally means that Christ was the agent of creation. This belief was affirmed by the 300+ Church Fathers who crafted the Creed that was affirmed at the First Ecuemenical Council in Nicea in 325:

Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ ... δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο

We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God ... by whom all things were made

The belief in Christ as the agent of creation was expounded earlier by the Greek Church Father Irenaeus (130-202) in Against Heresies, who cites John 1:3 -

The rule of truth which we hold, is, that there is one God Almighty, who made all things by His Word, and fashioned and formed, out of that which had no existence, all things which exist. Thus saith the Scripture, to that effect; By the Word of the Lord were the heavens established, and all the might of them, by the spirit of His mouth [Psalm 33:6]. And again, All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made. There is no exception or deduction stated; but the Father made all things by Him, whether visible or invisible, objects of sense or of intelligence, temporal

Against Heresies, I.XXII.1 ("Deviations of Heretics from the Truth")

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    I am curious if my answer was downvoted because the interpretation is considered incorrect or because of the citation of Greek Christian writings from antiquity.
    – user33515
    Apr 2 '17 at 17:46
  • 1
    I'm wondering the same. There seem to be a lot of downvotes happening on this question. I sited 5 scholarly sources that are directly relevant to the question and have gotten 3 or 4 downvotes with no comments or explanation.
    – P. TJ
    Apr 3 '17 at 1:36
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In Septuagint we see a certain kind of difference between God and His Word, for example Psalm 36:5 τῷ λόγῳ τοῦ κυρίου οἱ οὐρανοὶ ἐστερεώθησαν ("by the word of the Lord the heavens were established") but it is not clear what is exactly this difference. For instance, when I would say, "he inflated the balloon by his breath", I clearly differentiate grammatically between "him" and "breath" while they are also different in reality; on the contrary, when I say, e.g. that "water enlivened arid land through its wetness", I do differentiate "water" and "wetness" grammatically, but semantically and in reality they are identical.

Similarly, the Psalms' "by His word" can be interpreted, grammatically, in both ways: 1. He and His word are different realities, albeit in the context of creation out of nothing, both being indispensable for each other, for God cannot be imagined without His ability to create, which ability is expressed by the term "word"; 2. the term "word" is only grammatically distinct from God, as "wetness" from water, so that "by the word of God heavens are made" would mean the same as by "wetness of water arid land got enlivened", since the "word", then would mean simply God Himself, as if it were said, "by his divinity God established heavens", as the "wetness" simply means the water itself.

Now, John in 1:3 clearly chooses for the first option and moreover, makes this difference even more outspoken than Philo, so as to speak about Logos who is God and who is with God, and through whom God creates everything, which means that He is clearly both in some way distinct from God and simultaneously the instrument of God's creation, so that God does not create anything without Him.

Yet, here even more is said: not only God does not create anything without Him, but that God is unable create anything without Him, because, as in the mentioned Psalm 35:6 it is clearly implied that God's word is an indispensable agent of creation, being, so to say, God's extension; the same theology is asserted in Jesus' words in John 5:19 that "the Son is not able to do anything without Father", that their divine activity is one, so that when the Son performs a miracle, or heals, also the Father necessarily participates in this activity; as He says slightly above: "My Father works until now, and I work" (John 5:17), that, in the light of the John 5:19 signifies that this "work" is one and the same work semantically. This is the divine salvational work for bringing all mankind to the Heavenly Kingdom, which Kingdom is both Father's ("Thy kingdom come"...) and Son's ("My kingdom is not from this earth"); thus, as the causa finalis (the final cause) of the action, i.e. the Kingdom, is absolutely mutual and identical for the Father and the Son, so also the causa efficiensis (the active cause) leading to this aim is mutual and identical, to the effect that neither Father is able to do anything without the Son, nor the Son is able to do anything without the Father, just as it is impossible and untenable even to imagine the Kingdom of the Father, without this Kingdom's being also the Kingdom of the Son. In "anything" in the previous clause is not implied Jesus' human activity (eating, drinking, getting afraid etc.), which is not the activity of the Father, of course, but only Jesus' divine activity (subduing storms, resurrecting the dead etc.).

Thus, the John 1:3 is a clear message on co-eternity and co-divinity of Logos with God.

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Adding to the grammatical and linguistic arguments, is how the author continues to use the word:

All things were made through (δι’) Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (1:3)

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through (δι’) him might believe. (1:6-7)

That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through (δι’) Him, and the world did not know Him. (1:9-10)

The initial statement, "all things were made through Him" is reinforced, "the world was made through Him." Before making the statement, the author inserts a use which cannot be mistaken: God sent John that all through him (John) might believe.

John has also arranged these uses in a type of chiasm:

A: All things were made through Him

X: John was sent to bear witness to the light

A': The world was made through Him

A and A' share the same language and thought. The author has used repetition both to reinforce the meaning, everything was made through Him and to identify "Him:" He was in the world. Obviously He is Jesus. The next use of the word also makes clear the author's meaning:

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through (δι’) Him might be saved. (3:17)

  • All things were made through Him
  • The world was made through Him
  • All things will be saved trough Him
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There have been a lot of assumptions posted concerning this question. But ... To answer your question ... "What does John 1:3 mean by “through” Jesus everything is made?" To Illustrate: The Boss (the designer) tell his employee's on how to build a 20 story building? The employee’s build it according to his direction … etc. Now, who gets credit for building the building? That is, of course, the boss, the designer! The employees did not design the building but the work involved was done “through” them … etc.

There is another example that can help right there in the same chapter of John Chapter 1: verse 17 which states: “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” – American Standard Version. Also to note is the KJV states: “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” As you see this can be confusing. But a little reasoning and common sense we can get to the right conclusion. Why would Moses be used as an example here if it did not mean the same? Did Moses make the law for the Jews? And or was the covenant, or contract (the law) between the Jews and Moses? Of course not! The law was given to Moses from God, the covenant, the contract (the law) was between the Jews and God … so actually the law came to the Jews “through” Moses, and thus the source of the law was God. Likewise, grace and truth came “through” Jesus Christ … Jesus Christ was not the source concerning grace and truth … that source was, of course, his Father, and his God, Jehovah. Mt. 27:46

Now I don't know why the KJV says "by" I check the www.Biblegateway that has around 59 English Bible 70% use the word "through" including the NKJV. 22% only use "by" and 6% is stated in a way that is not very clear. I do know the English language has changed quite a bit. It said if you want to know 16th-century literature read the KJV ... but if you want to know the thoughts of God ... don't read the KJV.

There is no scripture that proves Jesus is the creator ... and Jesus Christ alway's given credit to his Father! And as John 8:28 states ... Jesus Christ was "taught" by his Father and did nothing of his own initiative meaning when it came to knowledge and even creating things Jesus was given direction by his Father and his God. And thus Jesus is not God, he is as the scriptures say the Son of God ... it does not say God the Son ... etc.

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    Welcome to the forum, Steve. This forum is different than most others because everyone is required to support their assertions with other scriptures, Greek or Hebrew, and logic. For example, we can look up the word translated "through" in Greek. It's διά (dia), which according to Strong's can be translated as "through, on account of, because of." As you pointed out "through" is also used with Moses. The same Greek word, dia, is used. But look carefully at the question. More than just the word "through" was used. In your last paragraph, you raise another point, but it's a "proof text" argument.
    – Dieter
    Jun 5 '18 at 2:00
  • @Steve Humphries You say "Jesus is not God". Jesus is God, I think the trouble starts in John 1:1 where ton theon and theon are both translated "God". Ton theon having the article means the Father. see "Cambridge Greek for schools and colleges".
    – C. Stroud
    Dec 4 '20 at 13:01
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Louw-Nida got this right. BDAG is consistent with it.

'It would be wrong to restructure Jn 1.3 to read 'he made everything in all creation,' for in the Scriptures God is spoken of as the Creator, but the creation was done 'through the Word' (Louw-Nida Greek Lexicon, p. χωρις)

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In a coherent deliberately self-referencing library of books such as the Bible, consideration of references to those other books is frequently a massive help in understanding the authors’ intended meaning.

John commences the words of his Gospel with 'en arche...', for the Jewish reader a clear reference to the very beginning of the Septuagint, namely Genesis, which has the very same first words and very similar other words and concepts, i.e. 'in the beginning… God', 'life', 'light in darkness' etc.

Further, one must consider what the understanding of the Logos was at the time, allow me to quote Wikipedia:

The Stoic philosophers identified the term with the divine animating principle pervading the Universe. Under Hellenistic Judaism, Philo (c. 20 BCE – 50 CE) adopted the term into Jewish philosophy… The Stoics also spoke of the logos spermatikos (the generative principle of the Universe which creates and takes back all things)…

To the Jew of the time this would have been a clear statement tantamount to blasphemy (and to the Greek outrageous and amazing), but entirely in line with the gospel of John’s entire and definite take on the deity of Jesus the Christ.

Within the broader library that is the Bible it might be worth considering the following as additional interpretational framework controls/guides:

Proverbs 8:30 (on Wisdom)

I was beside him as a master craftsman…

Isaiah 44:24

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself…"

Thus, I do not think you need to understand the details the original Greek word "through/by" in order to get the message of John here. It is irrelevant, to focus on a single piece of bark and question what it says, when the tree screams at you, as does the wood!

Firstly, the attribution of the word Logos to Jesus alone is a clear claim for the divinity and creation power and presence of Jesus - the term had such clear contemporary divine connotations.

Secondly, however, in John 1 we see so much more than mere attribution of a divine term - this same Logos is then explicitly portrayed as intimately involved with the creation of the universe, light and life - and thus by clear broader biblical implication is theos. These two points combined make the clarity of John’s intended communication irresistibly, gloriously and outrageously clear!

Thus, the vibe is clear - whether "by" or "through" - Jesus was intimately involved, and was with God in the creation, and because he was God Trinitarian in creation, the Jahweh who is One Elohim, He was alone, and the very clear statement in Isaiah 44:24 is not breached in any way. God made creation all alone, and Christ, the wisdom of God who is God was with the Father and the Spirit in creation. This is the whole vibe of 'in the beginning', 'with God' etc.

PS. As an aside, it is worth noting that non-Bible believing biblical Greek scholars consider the text to be claiming Jesus is theos - read the above Wiki article. Only non-Greek scholars with other agendas will come to this text to try and change that essentially crystal clear intent.

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  • Fine answer. +1. I have a minor carp. Using a lower-case B in the word Bible (short for Holy Bible) is still not (I hope) standard usage. In the word "biblical" a lower-case B is fine, as is a lower-case B when bible is a generic term for a book which contains comprehensive information about a particular subject, such as fishing, hunting, antiques, or whatever. There's also the issue of consistency. You, for example, capitalized books of the Bible (e.g., Genesis) and Septuagint, so why not Bible? Just a thought. Keep up the good work! Feb 17 '17 at 16:26
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    @rhetorician Many thanks for the carp, and gracious patience explaining. I've duly conformed one more 'b' to 'B'. Thanks again. T Feb 20 '17 at 9:47
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Some good thoughts above. I will add my little bit.

Strong's Concordance dia: through, on account of, because of Original Word: διά Part of Speech: Preposition Transliteration: dia Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ah') Definition: through, on account of, because of Usage: (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of."

As creation came into being "through" "The Word" (Jesus) what then does this mean? Was Jesus the creator or a co-creator or a helper; how was Jesus "instrumental" in creation?

We get a clue to that at:-

NWT John 5:19 "Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner.

NWT John 5:30 "I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me."

We see in the above that Jesus did not take the "initiative" to do anything by himself, he followed what his Father's will, in other word he did as he was told to do.

So during the creation of the Cosmos "The Word" (Jesus) was the means the Jehovah brought Time, Space and Matter into being via Jesus:-

NWT Proverbs 8:22 "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago."

This is Jesus beginning and then acting as God's agency to to all other things "through him":-

NWT Proverbs 8:30 "Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time;..."

This brings us back to John 1:3 & 10, which is talking of "The Word" (Jesus) following the instructions of The Creator, Jehovah, during the creative epochs as His "master worker" or the hands on worker that did what the Great Architect, Jehovah, decreed for creation on-wards.

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  • The Word as the Logos reminds me of a quote by Max Planck, considered the father of Quantum Mechanics. "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."
    – Dieter
    Jan 6 '19 at 19:52
  • @Dieter Sounds like - Isaiah 40:26 “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who brings out their army by number; He calls them all by name. Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power, Not one of them is missing.
    – user26950
    Jan 6 '19 at 20:13
  • I think one should make a distinction between the incarnate form and the form prior to incarnation and possibly the form prior to creation itself. It’s not obvious to me that the Son can do nothing of himself is extended to mean in His whole existence. Jan 13 '19 at 13:12
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The "Palestinian Targum" of Neofiti ... at least in my mind ... refers to the wisdom connected with the messiah in Gen. 1:1. This has got to be the wisdom the apostles are talking about.

מלקדמין בחכמה ברא (ד)יי שכלל ית שמיא וית ארעא

"In/From the beginning in/with wisdom, God created and finished the heavens and the earth."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targum_Neofiti

"He is the one I was talking about when I said, 'A man is coming after me who is far greater than I am, for he existed long before me.'" [John 1:30, John the Baptist]

"But the author/maker (ראש/αρχηγον) of life you killed, whom God hath raised from the dead: of which we are witnesses." [Acts 3:15, Peter]

"These things saith the Amen (Christ), the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God" [Rev. 3:14]

"The queen of the south will be raised up at the judgment with this generation, and will condemn it, because she came from the extremities of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon. And behold something greater (more wise) than Solomon is here" [Matthew 12:42, Christ]

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What does John 1:3 mean by “through” Jesus everything is made?

John 1:3 (NRSV)

John 1:3 says " All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being ." at first the verse may be difficult to understand, however the OT and Paul shed more light in the scriptures, that help us understand the meaning,

Paul refers to Christ as the power and wisdom of God:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (NASB)

" But to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the
power of God and the wisdom of God.
"**

And that through Christ all things both in the heavens and on earth, were created.

Colossians 1:15-16 (NRSV)

The Supremacy of Christ

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.

"The Empire State Inc. consortium" provided the funds for the building of the Empire State building, this makes them "the creator of the building" by means of the agent- contractors " Starrett Brothers and Eken, Paul and William A. Starrett and Andrew J. Eken," (From Wikipedia) Similarly, the power of the creation came from God through his holy spirit (Gen. 1:2 Psalm 33:6)Rather than a co-Creator, then, the Son was the agent or instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the Creator, worked. Jesus himself credited God with the creation, as do all the Scriptures.​

Jesus as the power of God and Wisdom of God is personified in Proverbs ,as working beside his Father in the creative work:

Proverbs 8: 12,22-31 (NRSV)

Wisdom’s Part in Creation

12 "I, wisdom, live with prudence,and I attain knowledge and discretion." 22 "The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth—26 when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world’s first bits of soil."

27 "When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth."

Conclusion:

So the meaning of the Greek word " δια" translated " through" as applied in John 1:3 is summed up in Proverbs 8:30 (NRSV) and as a master worker, Jesus followed his Father's instructions. (John 5:19)

30 " Then I was beside him, like a master worker; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, 31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race."

God used his only begotten Son Jesus (John 3:16) , the beginning of the creation of God (Revelation 3:14 KJV) in creating all other things in heaven and on earth.

Colossians 1:15-17 King James Version (KJV)

15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

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  • It seems you are suggesting that Jesus is before everything and God made everything thru him. Col says, ...IN heaven, and that are IN earth,. This is not about making the heavens or the earth, but the things on, therefore this is not a Genesis creation being referenced. John 1:3 does not mention Jesus. Col 1:18 makes clear what firstborn means - from the dead.
    – steveowen
    Feb 8 at 20:35
-1

Zodhiates in his CWSNTD says (among other things) concerning DIA under D:

Of the mode, manner, state, or circumstances through which anything, as it were, passes, i.e., takes place, is produced.

DIA is a preposition; prepositions are primarily adverbial; adverbs are words that help describe/express a relation of place, time, circumstance, manner, cause, degree, etc ...they modify or qualify an adjective, verb, or other adverb or a word group.

In John 1:3 we read:

All things (if I may so state) with what is 'of' the mode, manner, state, and circumstances, of what is 'of' it, (The Logos)...came to be (EGENETO).

πάντα δι' αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο

DI AUTOU are two words in the genitive case; as many would suggest, is the 'of' case.

The Greek word AUTOU is third person singular (he, she, it)

The possibility stands then that it may be rendered, all things by means of what is 'of' it came to be. What John has been centered on presenting so far is this "The Logos". hO LOGOS, not Jesus. Hence, I cannot answer your question of "What does John 1:3 mean by “through” Jesus everything is made?" However, your question of "But what about John 1:3, what does "through" mean there?", can be spoken to as found above and below.

DIA with the genitive speaks of something that passes through something, and as it passed through that something, picks up characteristics of that something.

Baked bread for instance has come to be "through" what is the plant wheat, along with the life it has had; the soil it has been in; the light that it has processed and lived and come to be by; the water that it has absorbed and lived by...and now can bring all those things to us when we consume it.

Take a Chevrolet Corvette.

It has been made through what is 'of' steel, plastic, planning/engineering, modeling; as well as many other materials and processes.

Whatever hO LOGOS is to the author; what it is, that the word meant to the author, it is what is 'of' it that is characteristic to all that has been created, for the author goes on to state that absolutely nothing that was made was made without what is 'of' (he/him, her/she, or it...AUTOU)(genitive case)

This is one way of considering what is indicated when we see the word DIA/through.

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  • You could certainly argue that John 1:14-18 makes it clear that the logos and Jesus are synonymous, but I suppose that is the subject for another discussion. I think there's a distinctive technical usage of dia when in the genitive and specifically when used causally that you may be overlooking. The analogy of the corvette you use doesn't quite fit. In that sense dia would describe what it is made up "of" but in John 1 it is describing the agent of an action, which is somewhat different and very important here.
    – P. TJ
    Feb 17 '17 at 13:32
  • @P. TJ, We would normally expect the agent of the action to be described (if that were so in this case and I don't believe it is) by HUPO+ the genitive, not DIA+ the genitive. Even EN+the dative can do this. See Hebrews 1:2 (by a son) DI AUTOU is describing something involved with/being utilized in the making of all things; constituent to that making and something that becomes constituent to all things that are made. Feb 18 '17 at 13:36
  • I know that several scholarly sources I cited below specifically discuss the use of dia in the genitive in order to describe the agent of an action, but I'll try to do some more reading on why that would be used as opposed to the other options you mention.
    – P. TJ
    Mar 2 '17 at 19:34
  • I'm pretty curious why these answers are getting downvotes when they seem to be relevant, on topic, and based on legitimate scholarship. I'm fairly new to this board so maybe that's normal.
    – P. TJ
    Mar 2 '17 at 21:51
  • @P.TJ not me, i don't even know if i can with my reputation. Mar 7 '17 at 15:03
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All that was made was made logically, sensibly, reasonably. All that was made was an expression of the Creator. Everything made but expresses Him who made it. Male and female express the Purpose of God in His own Son.

Thus all was made, through Logos. And Logos was in the beginning - the entirety of all that could be communicated intelligently. Before there was anything else - there He was, in the beginning. All things were made through, dia, Him. For the Father loveth the Son.

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  • Unless you can edit this answer to explain the connection between the use of "arrhen" in Matthew 19:4 and the use of "dia" in John 1:3, without the theological notions, then it is not addressing the question that is being asked, and is likely to be deleted.
    – enegue
    Sep 24 '17 at 23:00
  • Duly noted and duly edited for brevity. Nigel.
    – Nigel J
    Sep 25 '17 at 22:38
-1

The Greek word which is normally translated as "through" in John 1:3 and elsewhere in the New Testament in English translations is the word "δι’" which has a wide application of meanings but when used in relation to a person or thing it means that the person or thing in question is the agent in some way, shape, or form through which someone else does something or through which something happens. Strong's concordance lists it as meaning "through, on account of."

But what it would mean in regards to Jesus being the agent through which God created all things is that all things were created with him in mind. For instance, Hebrews 1:1-2 says: "God, having spoken long ago to our fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in a son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, and through (δι’) whom He also made the ages (αἰῶνας)." So the obvious meaning of this is that God planned out the ages with Jesus in mind and in His divine plan. The same things applies with anything else being created δι’ Jesus.

https://biblehub.com/strongs/greek/1223.htm https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-3.htm https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/1-2.htm

9
  • Hello David and welcome to the site. When you have a minute please take the tour: hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/tour There are some problems with your analysis of the Greek. But more importantly is that you do not provide an authoritative source for your off assertions about Greek which is a requirement for this site.
    – Ruminator
    Dec 8 '18 at 19:26
  • I'll edit my comment and add sources but if you could please explain which part of my comment is incorrect. Dec 8 '18 at 22:14
  • I'm not a guru myself but it is not di + person or di + thing but rather di + accusative vs d + dative.
    – Ruminator
    Dec 8 '18 at 22:31
  • I was being more specific. Dec 8 '18 at 22:34
  • 1
    @David the Prince—No one here is required to pay money to a college to learn any foreign language. Please don't regard such questions. Granted, if you discuss Greek, there comes with it the assumption that you know what you're speaking about. To lend credence to your statements, no matter your level of education, simply cite relevant authorities on the topic (and yes, there are scholars/academics who are considered authorities by most everyone). Jan 6 '19 at 18:27
-1

What does John 1:3 mean by “through” Jesus everything is made?

As John is talking about the 'word' not Jesus. Jesus is not mentioned at all! I'm surprised it still stands on BH like that.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

No Jesus anywhere there. Which is understandable as he wasn't born yet.

The text is about the logos and all things made through the logos.

We read in Genesis, when 'God said' and things happened. Moses was inspired to write these things - did God have to 'speak' to do anything? I doubt it - but as God is not alone, He has His heavenly host around and He involves them in His creative works. Does He need perhaps billions of angels? When John writes of similar things, he emphasises the word of God - the plan, the intent, the purpose, the reason, the wisdom of God. It is all this that God creates through His logos.

The secondary question is, which makes a lot more sense;

Do any parts of the Bible definitively claim that everything is made by Jesus?

No, they don't - basically because it would have been impossible. Which part of the timeline of the 'logos becoming flesh' happened 'in the beginning'? None of it - Jesus was born ~4BC

Jesus was sent by his Father to die. We're told Jesus was a man, mortal - not immortal (how can he die if he is immortal?) we can't have him making anything at Genesis or before - as in logos.

John 8:40 a man who has told you the truth

A quick search of 'logos' usage and what it meant to the reader/listener of the day rules out any such concept of a 'person' being understood by anyone! They knew of ONE God and of prophecies telling of a Messiah/Saviour to come.

We are told that Yahweh is the creator - and He is the only Lord in OT.

Is 45:5 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun that there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other.

As we see from NT usage of logos, it can mean many things - word, statement, message, story, account and many others - never a person - not even close!

Luke 7:17 And the news about Jesus spread… John 6:60 This is a difficult statement… Phil 2:16 holding fast the word of life… John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you… Matt 5:37 But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes… Luke 8:11 the seed is the word of God. Heb 4 :12 The word of God is living and active… 1 Cor 2:4 my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words…

Heb 4:12 The word of God is living and active. Notice the complete lack of making a 'person' out of this dynamic text! It's the logos once again, God's word is indeed living and active and that's how everything was made that was made.

We don't need to quote unbiblical sources to understand truth - let the bible tell us. But let it speak on its own terms - read exactly what it says and not the badly interpreted dogma that produces misleading proof-texts. Presuming Jesus in John 1:1-3 is poor exegesis and yields poor theology.

7
  • 1
    what denomination is that? Sep 6 '20 at 14:37
  • @user3293056 Why do you ask? This isn't Denomination or Theology Hermeneutics is it?
    – steveowen
    Nov 30 '20 at 5:17
  • 1
    You say the Word cannot be Jesus because Jesus was "made yet." 1) When do you believe Jesus was made? 2) When the Scripture says "the Word became flesh..." do you believe it is at that point Jesus is the Word or do you maintain Jesus and the Word were and still are distinct? Dec 3 '20 at 19:20
  • The logos of John 1:1-3 is not Jesus. Jesus was born ~4BC - or as you say, made. The 'word' OF God is still a thing, God still speaks, but Jesus is the fullest expression of God apart from God Himself. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, …. able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart Who is the one God appoints to Judge?
    – steveowen
    Dec 3 '20 at 19:39
  • That Jesus - the word made flesh, still only spoke what God gave him to speak - how can Jesus be some 'divine eternal word' if he doesn't have what to say within himself? If we answer from scripture, we find Jesus is a man - appointed by God, and cannot be God. If we answer from creeds and tradition we contradict plain scripture.
    – steveowen
    Dec 3 '20 at 20:11
-1

First Colossians 1:16

This is a miss-translation and a misquoted verse in the Old testament, it isn't only speaking about Jesus, but all of mankind, that everything was created for them and on account of mankind and everything was subjected to mankind I.e. animals the earth and the universe and mankind will rule everything.

For all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created on account of, because of him and for him.

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/colossians/1-16.htm

Strong's Concordance dia Greek

everything was created dia by reason of, for the sake of, because of.

Jesus couldn't of created everything because he said I can do of myself nothing, so the correct translation is because of him or on account of him everything was created and not threw Jesus, just like mankind everything was created because of him or them.

These verses are about mankind.

Simple sayings twisted and misunderstood turning Jesus into God.

The Universe and Earth along with Animals and everything else was created for Mankind and because of Mankind and this is what the Bible and Qur'an teaches.

But Paul has left everyone else out and is saying everything was created for Jesus only and this is not what the scriptures teach, everything was created for Mankind and on account of Man.

Psalm 8:6 talking about Mankind New International Version

You made them rulers over the works of your hands; you put everything under their feet: 4 what is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You care for him? 5 You made him a little lower than the angels and crowned him with glory and honor. 6 You made him ruler of the works of Your hands; You have placed everything under his feet:…

6 You made him ruler of the works of Your hands; You have placed everything under his feet: 7 all sheep and oxen, and even the beasts of the field, 8the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas.… …7all sheep and oxen, and even the beasts of the field, 8the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth!…

Psalm 8:4 3 When I behold Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You set in place— 4what is man that You are mindful of him, the son of man that You care for him? 5You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor.…

Hebrews 2:8 and put everything under their feet." In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them.

This proves everything was created because of mankind and for mankind including Jesus and you and me, but if you miss translate something it will read something else and say everything was created threw and for Jesus and this isn't true because the scriptures say everything was created because of mankind and for mankind and the Greek in First Colossians 1:16 says everything was created on account of Jesus just like everything was created on account of mankind and everything is subjected to mankind.

Psalms is talking about Mankind as a whole being a little lower then the Angels and everything under Mans feet and rule and everything was created because of man and for man, Paul is simply copying the Old Testament and replacing mankind with Jesus and certain people mistranslated Greek words to give Jesus a higher status and stature and this isn't what the scriptures teach God is always above Jesus and Jesus is only a man and not God.

John 1 talking about the Word of God, is simply talking about the Logos or Command of God I.e. the will of Allah creating everything threw his will or word, command and not threw Jesus, because John says the command of God created Jesus and he was made flesh and everything was created with the divine command of Allah and not using another entity or another person that was along with Allah, you are misunderstanding the basic scripture teachings, that Allah is one and a single entity and like Isaiah says there's no entity along with me and i created everything with my command or will and not another entity or God besides Allah.

Unless you believe Jesus is speech or thought and everyone knows Jesus isn't speech, well some Christians actually believed this; some still today, he's Gods command coming into existence in Mary and born without a father, he's Gods divine will being created, ( and the command of God became flesh and dwelt among us and we saw Jesus glory and nothing wasn't made without the command of God.

The Greek word there is Logos the same Logos used in John for command I.e. speech in Greek or thought

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6680.htm

5 command, appoint, ordain, of divine act: in creation Isaiah 45:12; Psalm 33:9; Psalm 148:5, providence 2 Samuel 17:4; Amos 6:11; Amos 9:9; Job 37:12; Psalm 78:23; Isaiah 34:16, redemption Psalm 7:7; Psalm 44:5; Psalm 68:29; Psalm 71:3; so of idol Isaiah 48:5 ("" עשׂה).

I am the one who made the earth and created people to live on it. With my hands I stretched out the heavens. All the stars are at my command.

Psalm 33:9 For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed by God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

Psalm 147:18 He sends forth His word and melts them; He unleashes His winds, and the waters flow.

Psalm 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD, for He gave the command and they were created.

Lamentations 3:37 Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it?

Ezekiel 24:14 I, the LORD, have spoken; the time is coming, and I will act. I will not refrain or show pity, nor will I relent. I will judge you according to your ways and deeds,' declares the Lord GOD."

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 3056 Browse Lexicon Original Word Word Origin logoß from (3004) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Logos

Definition

of speech
    a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
    what someone has said
        a word
        the sayings of God
        decree, mandate or order
        of the moral precepts given by God
        Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
        what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 
    discourse
        the act of speaking, speech
        the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
        a kind or style of speaking 

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/logos.html

The word was with God, misunderstanding of scriptures.

Lady Wisdom was with God.

The scriptures say Wisdom was with God and no Christian ever says that Wisdom who's described as female is another entity along with God, correction Christians believe Lady Wisdom is Jesus but Proverbs explains Wisdom is created according to the Septuagint; Hebrew Bible also possessed, so now there's 4 entity"s and all 4 are one, because according to your logic Wisdom is with God and she's eternal and was with God in the beginning and the word was with God in the beginning and it, he's eternal along with the Holy spirit who's with God and the Father who's with all 4 entity's, so now Christians actually have 4 entity's in one and not just three, using Christian logic.

Christianity's problem is you don't understand the scriptures and how they speak allegorically and how they describe things.

The Wisdom of God isn't a different person it's Gods eternal wisdom, like your wisdom isn't a different entity then you.

Gods Word isn't a different person or entity, it's Gods command or thought and will, just like your will or thought is you and not a different entity or person or spirit then yourself.

Jesus isn't God he's a man and prophet sent by God and God speaks and communicates with mankind threw Jesus, just like every other messenger, Angels and prophets, using miracles and prophecies.

Gods Holy spirit, isn't a different entity along with God, it's Gods power force energy and just read Genesis where it says, the spirit of God moved over the deep in the Hebrew it says Gods force or power and not a different entity, because Allah power and force isn't and different God.

THE HOLY SPIRIT In Hebrew, the original inspired language of the Tanach (Old Testament), the word 'Ruach' cannot be construed as a person. It is a force. It is invisible and like wind, because it can be felt or experienced, but not seen. It is the breath of God which disperses His life-force, His energy and His intentions/mind.

It is Yahweh's Spirit which is is omnipresent, but also can be directed in specific ways for specific purposes. It is not His actual Person (which remains incorporeal and outside of the physical dimension) that manifests itself in the world, or which comes to dwell in the hearts and lives of His people.

His spirit can be said to be the emanation of His life-force - i.e. breath Definition of spirit/ruach:

“The basic meaning of ruach is both ‘wind’ or ‘breath,’ but neither is understood as essence; rather it is the power encountered in the breath and the wind, whose whence and whither remains mysterious… 2. ruach as a designation for the wind is necessarily something found in motion with the power to set other things in motion…The divine designation also apparently has an intensifying function in a few passages:

ruach elohim (Gen 1:2) and ruach yhwh (Isa 59:19)”

(Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament, “Ruach”).

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Hebrew_Roots/Trinity/Holy_Spirit

Who is Lady Wisdom in Proverbs 8?

Lady Wisdom in Proverbs 8: Was She a Co-Creator with God? Proverbs 8:22-31 gets a lot of attention because of verse 30, where someone was “beside” God “like a master workman.”

Proverbs 8:22-31 gets a lot of attention because of verse 30, where someone was “beside” God “like a master workman.” Christians are used to thinking in these terms because Jesus is cast as God’s agent of creation (Col 1:16; 1 Cor 8:16). But Wisdom in Proverbs seems to conflict with that for a simple reason—throughout the book Wisdom is cast as a woman. Look at Prov 1:20-22. Notice how wisdom is referred to by the pronouns “she” and “her”:

Notice how wisdom is referred to by the pronouns “she” and “her”: Proverbs 8:22-31 is famous for its description of the wisdom of God as a person or entity—a deity-level figure who assists God in some way with the creation of the world.

During his lifetime, Jesus himself didn't call himself God and didn't consider himself God, and ... none of his disciples had any inkling at all that he was God. Historian Bart Ehrman

Bible speaks clearly about God and the Qur'an. Because Allah doesn't walk around and live in buildings that man makes and doesn't use toilets and becomes a human being, male or female and doesn't change his entity, Qur'an there's nothing like Allah in the universe.

Yusuf Ali: (He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things).

Psalm 86:8 Among the judges (3), mighty (2), rulers there is none like you, Lord; no deeds can compare with yours.

Malachi 3:6 https://biblehub.com/hebrew/8132.htm

"I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. shana or shanah A primitive root; to alter -- change.

Acts 7:48 "However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says: 47But it was Solomon who built the house for Him.

48However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says: 49‘Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. What kind of house will you build for Me, says the Lord, or where will My place of repose be?…

Isaiah 66:1,2 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? …

You simply don't understand scriptures because your being taught lies and people are trying to justify a trinity and 3 Gods and are deliberately withholding certain scripture verses and chapters that say the exact same thing about Gods word or command and is actually described as a female and was with God from the beginning, lady wisdom, so what you think the word or Gods command is, it isn't and it isn't another entity with God, but it's Gods command or will that created everything including Jesus and all of us, and the command of God or will of God became flesh, Bible, so Allah simply said be and Jesus was created, just like Adam, all Allah has to say is be and it is, or simply will everything into existence, because Allah simply doesn't keep saying billions of words of creation like the millions of animals and plants and insects, galaxy's and so on.

Allah knows best

2
  • I believe I see what you're saying; Robert Young felt he was seeing mistranslation too. He therefore presented the following for Colossians 1:16. “Because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created." Nov 27 '18 at 20:37
  • Proverbs 30:4 (NASB) states: "Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son’s name? Surely you know!"
    – Dieter
    Jan 6 '19 at 19:59
-2

John 1:3 does not mention Jesus so the question is a tad leading. It speaks of the logos, or "utterance":

λόγος, ου, ὁ (verbal noun of λέγω in the sense ‘pick’; Hom.+). p 599 ① a communication whereby the mind finds expression, word ⓐ of utterance, chiefly oral. ...

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 598–599). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

BDAG also lists "computation, reckoning" which is not particularly relevant to John 1:3.

He also lists the specifically Christian usage which of course is dependent on this passage so it is a bit circular but was also popular among the Greeks as a "personified expression of God":

③ the independent personified expression of God, the Logos. Our lit. shows traces of a way of thinking that was widespread in contemporary syncretism, as well as in Jewish wisdom lit. and Philo, the most prominent feature of which is the concept of the Logos, the independent, personified ‘Word’ (of God)...

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 601). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

What John 1:3 is referring to is the utterances of Genesis 1:

NIV Gen 1:

3And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. 6And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day. 9And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. 11Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day. 14And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day. 20And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day. 24And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 26Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,a and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

What all this means is that nothing in Genesis 1 came to be without God saying, "Let there be..". I see two possible reasons for God saying "Let there be...". Either he was creating the world by fiat (simply by speaking the world into existence) or he was issuing a command to the personification of his logos who would then dutifully make it so. (The latter would explain the saying, "And God saw... and it was very good"). In which case we see a parallel with Proverbs 8:30 where Wisdom (a female personification) is said to be with God and a master workman:

NASB Proverbs 8:30Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,

Please see my related question here:

In John 1:3 why does the author use ἐγένετο instead of ἐποίησεν?

Also related:
What does the Latin word 'sermo' convey that 'verbum' does not in John 17:17 and John 1:1?

And my related question on the sister site: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/60006/in-trinitarian-theology-who-created-the-world

4
  • Could you clarify your conclusion? It seems to me that the latter option you offer, that God "was issuing a command to the personification of his logos who would then dutifully make it so" would be generally compatible with trinitarian theology, with Jesus as the personification of the divine Logos, which John 1:14 would seem to confirm. If you reject that connection, could you explain why?
    – P. TJ
    Oct 17 '17 at 16:51
  • @P.TJ I do not draw a conclusion. At present I am uncertain of the precise relationship between these various passages. For example, is God's wisdom being personified? Or is wisdom a female deity created before Genesis 1? Is the logos a personification of God's utterance or a god present with Yehovah in Genesis 1? Was wisdom created by God or was the personification of wisdom created by God? I'm not a theologian, just an expositor. However Trinity clashes with the text since wisdom is "the first of God's works, made before the making of world".
    – Ruminator
    Oct 17 '17 at 17:07
  • "Trinity clashes with the text since wisdom is "the first of God's works, made before the making of world". Again, I don't understand how you draw the conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is in conflict with the image of wisdom personified in Proverbs. For one, Proverbs is wisdom literature where poetic language is common. So the idea that this personification of wisdom is symbolic is more likely than that it is literal or historical. And second, even if wisdom were a created being, that in no way conflicts with God as a pre-existent Trinity.
    – P. TJ
    Feb 20 '18 at 17:12
  • Proverbs 8:22“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,c d before his deeds of old; 23I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. 24When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; 25before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth.
    – Ruminator
    Feb 20 '18 at 17:20

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