Timeline for Does John the Baptist's witness imply the pre-incarnate existence of Jesus?
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14 events
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| Jul 10, 2022 at 12:22 | comment | added | Mike Borden | I've asked this related question: hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/77309/… | |
| Jul 10, 2022 at 0:17 | comment | added | Mike Borden | Yes. I see. It was/came to be...man...having been sent...from...of God. This makes sense. J the B was sent by God to witness and J the B responded to the sending by actively witnessing (it was). KJV is not wrong. The Word was made flesh and "was made" is reflexive to the subject in the same way as J the B's witnessing. In other words God sent the Word and the Word was made flesh by self rather than another. | |
| Jul 9, 2022 at 23:39 | comment | added | Only True God | @MikeBorden The comparison of egeneto to 6 is with 'was' (alternately, 'came'). Same exact word. | |
| Jul 9, 2022 at 23:35 | comment | added | Only True God | @MikeBorden Take it up with the 47 scholars who translated the KJB! ;) But I think Weymouth's is probably more or less the correct sense, and fits with much of the rest of the prologue. | |
| Jul 9, 2022 at 23:34 | comment | added | Only True God | @MikeBorden Yes, he was in the social order, and the social order knew him not, although the new social order was made through him. These 3 ideas are expanded on in the next three lines (11-13). How do you understand the term 'cosmos' there? | |
| Jul 9, 2022 at 23:16 | comment | added | Mike Borden | Scroll a little to the "middle voice" section. Hope it helps! ntgreek.net/lesson24.htm | |
| Jul 9, 2022 at 23:00 | comment | added | Mike Borden | "Sent" in v, 6 is in the passive voice which indicates the subject (the baptist) receives the action. In v. 14 the Word "became flesh" and performed the action. That's the difference. J the B received the sending...the Word enfleshed himself (itself if you prefer). In your example, if the verse 14 verb were used it would be rendered "Johnny made himself to be a baby in mommy's tummy". | |
| Jul 9, 2022 at 22:47 | comment | added | Mike Borden | If "the beginning" of v. 1 is the same event as "the enfleshment" of v.14? He was in the world that was made by him and that world knew him not (v.10). It's hard to understand this world that he made which didn't know him as starting at the beginning of his ministry. | |
| Jul 9, 2022 at 22:42 | comment | added | Only True God | @MikeBorden Similarly, the prophets (and John the Baptist, 1:6-7) were 'sent' by God. Did they literally descend from heaven? No, but they 'came' from God. | |
| Jul 9, 2022 at 22:38 | comment | added | Only True God | @MikeBorden For the second point, 'egeneto' is a vague verb and can mean all sorts of things. KJB translates it 'was made' (the translators evidently disagree with your grammatical claim), most translate it 'became', Weymouth's translates it 'came in the' (!). The same verb is translated in a variety of ways in other places in John. I don't think the line is referring to conception, BUT if it does ... we might say "Johnny became a baby in mommy's tummy." We say that, but we don't mean Johnny pre-existed. It's a figure of speech. | |
| Jul 9, 2022 at 22:31 | comment | added | Only True God | @MikeBorden Thanks for this - I don't follow your first point. Why are 2-13 nonsensical? | |
| Jul 9, 2022 at 22:22 | comment | added | Mike Borden | If the beginning of John 1 is the beginning of Jesus' ministry this certainly couldn't have begun before he was born and that makes verse 1 and verse 14 synonymous and verses 2-13 kind of nonsensical. The verse 14 verb γινομαι (ginomai) is middle deponent in voice which means the subject (the Word) performs the action. Since the Word performs the action of becoming flesh, the Word must have pre-existed that event which is the early limit of the beginning of Jesus' ministry. The two "creation" verbs in verse 3 are basically the same with middle deponent and active voice respectively. | |
| Jul 9, 2022 at 20:21 | history | edited | Only True God | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Jul 9, 2022 at 19:48 | history | answered | Only True God | CC BY-SA 4.0 |