Timeline for prayers = incense in Revelation alternative translation
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| Jun 17, 2020 at 9:51 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
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| Nov 18, 2017 at 12:19 | comment | added | Sola Gratia | Haha, yes, the "Revelation 5:8—an explicit answer to the question" section of the answer XD By this time, saints had come to include gentiles also, not only Jews, though. | |
| Nov 18, 2017 at 6:31 | vote | accept | jackdale | ||
| Nov 14, 2017 at 14:54 | comment | added | Ruminator | Okie dokie, folks, I have found the "smoking gun" (pun intended): Revelation 5:8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the holy. So the incense is the prayers of the faithful Jewish remnant! This turned out to be a very fascinating question! | |
| Nov 13, 2017 at 23:58 | comment | added | Ruminator | I don't have the Greek chops to say either way. | |
| Nov 13, 2017 at 23:53 | comment | added | Sola Gratia | Neither of the LXX codices have the dative (S has the gen. for 12:12 προσευχῆς ὑμῶν of your prayers —as does Vat; S has acc. at 12:15 τὰς προσευχὰς the prayers [that are of the saints] whereas S omits such in this verse as does the Vul); but again, the allusion, even if unintentional, still remains: the doctrine or revelation is the same, i.e. that there are seven angels before God who offer the prayers of the saints. The allusion is hardly of the form of a direct quotation. Such would be a simple quotation, not an allusion. As I said, the dative, genitive, accusative are irrelevant here. | |
| Nov 13, 2017 at 23:28 | comment | added | Ruminator | So Sinaiticus has the dative? Well that cements the allusion! And it being parallel with the accusative is interesting though ambiguous. | |
| Nov 13, 2017 at 17:46 | comment | added | Sola Gratia | I somewhat quickly put together the answer, and so missed that the other Codex (I opted for Codex Sinaiticus, as opposed to Codex Vaticanus or Alex. entirely arbitrarily, as I needed but the relevant words, really), the latter of which actually includes: "[the angels offer] the prayers of the saints." But as for the accusative, it accounts for the respective different (grammatical) roles the phrases have in the respective sentences, not a difference in meaning. | |
| Nov 13, 2017 at 17:10 | comment | added | Ruminator | Of course, sorry my brain short circuited. But isn't "τὰς προσευχὰς" in the accusative? Tobit 12:15 ἐγώ εἰμι Ῥαφαήλ, εἷς ἐκ τῶν ἑπτὰ ἁγίων ἀγγέλων οἳ προσαναφέρουσιν τὰς προσευχὰς τῶν ἁγίων καὶ εἰσπορεύονται ἐνώπιον τῆς δόξης τοῦ ἁγίου. Swete, H. B. (1909). The Old Testament in Greek: According to the Septuagint (Tob 12:15). Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press. | |
| Nov 13, 2017 at 17:06 | comment | added | Sola Gratia | Thanks! "..isn't the Tobit version using an accusative?" For what, sorry? "..is a dative that has no preposition.." I said that part in a confusing way—I meant "The dative can rarely go unsupplemented by a proposition" in the target language; and when it does go without a prep. in English, it is usually converted into another form of word, similar to how 'those believing in' (technically a verb) has to be converted into 'whoever believes' (noun). | |
| Nov 13, 2017 at 16:26 | comment | added | Ruminator | Great find (the Tobit reference)! However isn't the Tobit version using an accusative? Also, off the top of my head, "by grace" (or, "to grace") in Ephesians 2:8 is a dative that has no preposition, if memory serves. | |
| Nov 13, 2017 at 15:30 | history | answered | Sola Gratia | CC BY-SA 3.0 |