Timeline for What does "what if" mean in Romans 9:22?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
18 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Sep 16, 2017 at 2:57 | comment | added | karma | Putting my self as a Calvinist, it seems all the babies which God made (and will make) prepared for destruction... they are just a tool :). | |
| Mar 2, 2017 at 17:13 | comment | added | Gigi Sanchez | What word would he have had to use if he was using the past tense? What I'm seeing is that, throughout Romans 9, Paul uses the past to prove his point in the present. He refers to the forefathers (v 5), to Isaac (v 7), to Sarah (v 9), to Rebecca (v 10), to Jacob (v 12-13), to Moses and Pharaoh (v 15-17). It all comes to a head in verse 27 when he draws from Hosea 1:10. | |
| Mar 2, 2017 at 12:20 | comment | added | Susan | Probably because it makes the most sense, and the English past is the default translation of the aorist. While I accept that the translators are intelligent people who agree that, contextually, this is the most accurate representation of this verse in English, it's just not the case that "[Paul] is using the past tense". | |
| Mar 1, 2017 at 18:55 | comment | added | Gigi Sanchez | He already wrote it that way. But why do you think the translators didn't use "bears" or "endures" -which works- instead of "bore" and "endured?" | |
| Feb 28, 2017 at 22:32 | comment | added | Susan | @GigiSanchez He could indeed write with no tense; such is the nature of the Greek aorist. We don't have any way of representing finite verbs in English without time (though you could think of a participle: "God bearing/enduring..."), but in Greek this is possible. | |
| Feb 28, 2017 at 15:49 | comment | added | Gigi Sanchez | I wrote NIV in the comments and accidentally wrote ESV up top so thanks. That it's not used in the Greek is debatable -that's fair. But most translations use "endure" and my understanding is that "endure" is the more precise term for Romans 9:22, that 'phero' is translated more exactly as "endure" here, not as "bore." It's true that it's not constrained by time and I think that's why it's universal. All translations are using it in the past tense (bore or endured). It's not constrained by time but that doesn't mean it wasn't used in the past tense by Paul. How could he write it with no tense? | |
| Feb 28, 2017 at 14:48 | history | edited | Gigi Sanchez | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
edited body
|
| Feb 28, 2017 at 12:28 | comment | added | Susan | I think what you've quoted as ESV is something other than ESV (which has "desiring to show his wrath.... endured with much patience"). Also, I'm not sure what you mean by saying that the word "bore" isn't there in Greek; ἤνεγκεν is an aorist active from φέρω ("to bear"). Also of note with regard to your last paragraph, the Greek aorist is not constrained by time, so no need to be concerned about tense there as one might if it were an English text. | |
| Feb 28, 2017 at 7:48 | comment | added | Gigi Sanchez | In my opinion, the NIV translation is faulty because it uses the word "although." That makes it sound like what you're hearing -that God did show wrath, and that's not the point that Paul is making. Paul is saying that God did not shown wrath to make God's power known, that God has the capability to do so but refrained. It's hard to answer your italics because so much is there and it's complex. NLT might be a better translation for you for this verse. Also, there are literally thousands of points of view within "Christianity" and they often disagree. One thing they agree on: Faith is key. | |
| Feb 28, 2017 at 7:26 | comment | added | karma | Gigi, I speak Indonesian language :). Now another question raised inside my mind : what does it mean "show His wrath and make His power known" ? When this event happen ? Am I correct to think something like this : it already happen in Noah's flood. Then after that Noah's flood event until now, nothing happen. But in the future time, it will happen again when He show His wrath and make His power known. But this is just my guessing. I don't know how it is in the point of view Christianity. | |
| Feb 28, 2017 at 7:06 | comment | added | Gigi Sanchez | No, that's not it. It's not just you, either. This isn't easy. This is almost like reading Shakespeare. It's tedious and the words don't always make sense. But it's good of you to plow forward. That's a great quality. What language do you speak? | |
| Feb 28, 2017 at 7:02 | comment | added | karma | Gigi Sanchez, thank you for your respond about "bore". This is quite difficult for me because I'm not from an English speaking country, it made me think that at the time Paul said that - it means that God didn't bear patience the objects of His wrath anymore. It's done after He showed his wrath and made His power known. | |
| Feb 28, 2017 at 6:54 | history | edited | Gigi Sanchez | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
deleted 28 characters in body
|
| Feb 28, 2017 at 6:48 | comment | added | Gigi Sanchez | hi karma, I added to the answer. Hope it helps. Sorry, forgot to upvote you, just fixed that. I keep forgetting to do that. | |
| Feb 28, 2017 at 6:47 | history | edited | Gigi Sanchez | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 1353 characters in body
|
| Feb 28, 2017 at 6:11 | comment | added | karma | thank you for your explanation. Could you please tell me why the verse used past tense "bore" ? | |
| Feb 27, 2017 at 21:57 | history | edited | Gigi Sanchez | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 93 characters in body
|
| Feb 27, 2017 at 21:38 | history | answered | Gigi Sanchez | CC BY-SA 3.0 |