Is Jesus equal to or less than the Father [closed]

Question

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

see Rule of Non-Contradiction

According to the linked rule, there must be a difference in time or way. Did God change or in what way is his character being referenced differently?

Answer 1

There have been entire books written on the concept of the Trinity and how it all works together. Milard Erikson's work on it Christian Theology is very helpful. It goes into theological depth, but you don't need a philosophy dictionary on the desk with you to read it. Also, the Catholic Encyclopedia has an excellent article on the Trinity and how the persons interact and differ.

The Bible teaches that there is one God who exists simultaneously as three distinct beings. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God. However, the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Spirit, and the Son is not the Spirit.

To put it simply, they are one in essence but different in office. Consider two military men. They are equal in the fact that they are both human males in the United States Army (their essence is the same). However, the General outranks the Colonel (they differ in office).

In John 10:30, Jesus is referring to their status as divine beings in the triune Godhead (in essence). In John 14:28, Jesus is referring to how He, the Son, submits to the Father (in office).

There are some who teach modalism, that the Son (and then the Spirit) was the way God presented himself to humanity after the Father (this is a simplification). However, many verses in the New Testament show that this is not the case. The Father, Son, and Spirit are all together at the baptism of Christ (Matthew 3:13-17, Mark 1:9-11, Luke 3:21-23). They are all mentioned in the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20). Many times, Jesus states that He is God yet also makes sure to point out that He is not the Father. They are not one in person. Here is an example:

John 14:23-24 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

The Son was sent by the Father and the words He speaks are not His own. Clearly, they are not the same person.

The Council of Nicaea, the first ecumenical council of the Christian church was called to discuss this very topic. Though a few other decisions were made (such as how to calculate the date of Easter), the trinity was far and away the most important and the most debated.

The discussion revolved around whether God the Father and Jesus are of the same substance or of similar substance. The difference in Greek is very little--one letter.

At the end of the debate, contrary to The Da Vinci Code, it was not a close vote.

Answer 2

When Jesus is saying His Father is ‘greater’ than He is, the God-Man seems to be principally speaking from His man-ward side, for from this ministry His only purpose was to do the will of the Father in all humility and service to mankind. Jesus was not the Father, just as the Spirit is not Jesus, or the Father. They are three distinct persons with the same single divine nature.

Of course Jesus was equal with the Father with respect to his God-ward side, but was made a servant of mankind in his man-ward. The willingness of the Son to perform the work of salvation also indicates the different role that the Son plays in the economy of the Trinity. Although His willing eternal submission may in a sense indicate His role as submissive to the father, even before the incarnation, it does not suggest in the slightest that He does not have absolute equality with the Father. The same can be said of a woman being equal to a man, but the role of the woman is more related to submission than is the man. Persons can be equal and have different roles in their union.

Philippians Chapter 2 gives us a good example of the economy of the Trinity, where the Father often 'wills', the Son 'obeys' and the Spirit 'effectually performs' the work through the Son and to the glory of the Son. The Son by His work glorifies the Father going full circle back to the original purposes of God the Father in Christ made effectual by the Spirit, who finishes and performed the works of Creation through the Father's Word. This is all very clear and settled doctrine.

An true version: (Assuming the Eternal Son is equal with the Father):

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death — even death on a cross! (Philippians 2, 6-8)

This simply means that the Eternal Son who was “in the form of God,” and “equal with God the Father” existing in Eternity in that divine state, and “took on him the” nature and “form of a servant”. He is God by nature, and was incarnate or made flesh by choice. If the father was not a distinct person than when the eternal Son left glory and humbled Himself into the earth, there would be no glory left in heaven, for this glory is the glory of God! If Jesus = the Father, rather than being ‘one with the Father’ this is how I read this verse:

An untrue mangled version of the text (Assuming the Son IS God the Father):

Who, being in very nature the Father, did not consider equality with Himself something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death — even death on a cross! For his own purposes and will and by His own power never needing to pray to the Father for strength by His Spirit and never needing to be anointed by the Father with the Spirit for this work. (Philippians 2, 6-8 A twisted view)

I think a view that would make any of the three person’s of the Godhead the same would mangle every bible verse related to them as exemplified above. It just does not stand the tests of the scriptures or offer any collective explanation of the many various ways that these three persons in the Godhead are referred to.

I seem to be responding more to Jas31 answer (note: not his real beliefs) than the actually answering the question. I hope this answers both.

Answer 3

I think we are not in a position to say what essence God is respecting the Father and the Son. That the Father is Spirit and the Son is Spirit means: We do not see. We do not touch. All we know is, what the Spirit teaches us within ourselves. The trinitarian dogma wanted to give answers to questions we are not even fit to ask. There has been no seeing of the Father and there is no seeing of the Spirit. Spirit is by nature that what is not seen. The Son had not been seen before He became man like us, that is flesh, severable and mortal. Now He can not be seen anymore until He will be seen when He has come. For the Father and for himself He is Son. For us He is God and Father by the one Spirit and there is no difference since it is one Spirit. The distinction comes when we ask what He is and will be to us and what He is to the Father. (Confusion comes when we see not the difference in our asking.) Trinitarian dogma in emphasizing the number is exclusive whereas the Son of Man spoke inclusively when He said: You will be one as I and the Father are one, to the end that we all be one. In God who is said to become everything and all for all and everyone of us.

Answer 4

If you're willing to entertain a "non-Trinitarian" perspective, I'll play the heretic once more, and provide an alternate interpretation.

WARNING: I'm about to argue in favor of modalism!!

Read this passage very slowly and try to put yourself in the shoes of each character to better understand this conversation:

"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. -John 14:7-11

Phillip just wanted to see the Father! What was Jesus' response? I will paraphrase: "Really, Phillip? You still don't get it? Who do you think you're looking at? Who do you think is behind these eyes you're gazing into?" The more I study the nature of God, the more suspicious I become that Jesus = God (i.e. God the Father), but in 'human form'. (That is not to say He merely appeared human, but that He put on flesh and blood.) The imagery of "Father" and "Son" were used to provide a useful illustration to man of what it looks like for a son to follow his Heavenly Father perfectly.

So then, why would Jesus say "my Father is greater than I"?

Let me digress for a moment before answering. Jesus made a similar statement with regard to the Spirit, indicating that it was better to have the Spirit than to have Him. I believe this is explained here to mean that Jesus is the Spirit, but the internal intimacy of "the Spirit" is better than the external fellowship with "the man, Jesus".

Back to "my Father is greater than I". I think this can be easily interpreted in a similar manner: that it is better to have a Heavenly Father than an earthly Rabbi. (Jesus may have also been saying this to serve as an example of the attitude that a man should have toward God.)

Looking forward to comments!